An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Basileus444, Apr 30, 2015.

  1. RogueTraderEnthusiast Winner: WillamOfOckham "Most Title" 2018

    Jun 15, 2016
    Oh that is pretty.

    Shame about all that dark green, I wonder if it'll be purple any time soon? :p

    In seriousness, it is great to have something to give a full-world view of everything. It reminds me at least that the Romans are very compact as an Empire, especially compared to places like China.

    I'm not sure if it's been a topic that's been covered, but the Romans really need to plan some sort of action in Africa and work for support for it soon. It'd be a great geopolitical legacy for the Sideros to have established a new SE Europe (in Roman favour), followed up by a new status quo in Mesopotamia, only to cap it off with resolving Italy and Africa. Going from being an Eastern Med state with Eastern Colonies to the Premier Med, SE Europe, Middle East, and North African State with East Indian Colonies, and the option to play ball in the West is a legacy Justinian would be envious of.

    @Basileus444 what are the Romans thoughts on North America at the moment. It seems pretty much safe territory for the Triunes, but the interior seems largely untouched because of Mexico being a thing. With the Roman alliances in Mexico, are they going to continue that policy in North America? Perhaps establishing themselves near OTL New Orleans at the heart of an anti-Triune North American network of alliances? It seems the most cost-effective way to hem in the Triunes in North America, and remind Saturn that Jupiter is 2.5 times the mass (read: might) the rest of the Solar System bar the sun. I'm not saying the Romans could build a strong industrial export capacity of D3 rifles in North America, but wait, no - that is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Hehehe.
  2. Βοανηργές Well-Known Member

    Aug 6, 2017
    Nice map, just a few more minor details to polish up.
    • Portuguese Ternate, Tidore
    • Portuguese Malacca
    • Khazaria having more of Central Asia (particularly southwards of the Aral Sea)
    • Rhomaion-Serbia borders are more of a straight line (from Northern Albania to around modern Dobra, Serbia) and less of a depression
    • Add in the Emirate of Darfur?
    • Cossack Horde's borders are too west. Khazaria should border Georgia instead.
    • Rhomaion has more of Northern Mesopotamia (south of Lake Van)
    • Pernau and Narva returned to Novgorod and Prussia respectively
    • Prussia owns Zemaitija
    • Vlachia owns Vojvodina
    • Stronger Aceh?
    • Georgia owns Astrakhan instead of Great Pronsk
    • Saluzzo-Nice owns a large chunk of Western Italy
    • The easternmost part of Poland looks like Northern Galicia which should be in Vlach hands by now.
    • Vijaynagar should be bigger
    • Java has been united?
    • Larger Champa
    • Cyrenaica should be part of Rhomaion's Libyan vassal instead of Egypt
    • Mexican South America looks too coastal
    Overall, pretty good! Refer to the 1634, 1625 and 1600 map for border adjustments.
  3. Frame Well-Known Member

    Sep 9, 2019
    Thanks so much for the criticism! I tried my best to implement the changes but I’m a major amateur at this so I apologize if it’s sloppy. Anywho here’s the updated version! Suggestions are very welcome :)

    Attached Files:

  4. HanEmpire Delicious

    Oct 2, 2011
    The Land of Eh
    It's coming along.

    One error I see is Georgia's border. Georgia's northern border is defined by the Don and Volga rivers, with the northernmost area being the shortest gap in between the two rivers.
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  5. Frame Well-Known Member

    Sep 9, 2019
    Oh yeah, also am I misremembering or did the Spanish have a colony around panama?

    Attached Files:

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  6. Grammar Kaiser You spelled this wrong!

    Apr 6, 2017
    Huh. I thought Mexico was Spanish America minus Argentina and Patagonia?
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  7. Βοανηργές Well-Known Member

    Aug 6, 2017
    Not sloppy at all! Your map is comparable to most other maps on this forum.

    Yup! or more specifically the Portuguese

    I think Scythia's borders in your 1st image looked more accurate.

    A few more pointers - larger Hadramawt; smaller Yemen; larger Oman
    Rhomaion's border with Serbia still curve too much southwards
    Lithuania lost its sea access a while back
    Arles controls Poitou

    But other than that, the map is starting to look real good!

    Attached Files:

  8. TheWanderingReader Well-Known Member

    Nov 11, 2015
    Germany's darkest hour is here, I wonder if they will have their own age of miracles in an attempt to hold back the Triunes. Rome and Ethiopia had their age of miracles, perhaps it is time for Lady Fortuna to grant such a blessing to the Germans too.
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  9. RogueTraderEnthusiast Winner: WillamOfOckham "Most Title" 2018

    Jun 15, 2016
    This does seem somewhat dramatic. It isn't like Germany has been reduced to a fraction of its strength. It's getting a Gothic Invasion of Italy, at worst.

    Like, we have to remember that Germany was about to go "Glorious Germany can never Fall, Masters of the Romans, Roman Empire Germanicus FTW" literally a few years ago.

    Oddly enough, what this war could do is lead to the shake up a huge amount of old institutions. Is HRE Germany dead? Sure - but Germany will be fine, even if it lost the Rhineland, it'd still be actionable. It just wouldn't be on the same level (short term) as the Triunes or Rhomania. It doesn't need an Age of Miracles, it needs to accept institutional change (again, this is why my money is on the more mercantile north being its saviours politically). A Germany with a strong focus on its economic power and institutional reform could easily fund a fiscal army, and do what Germany was always feared for - dominating Europe.
  10. Frame Well-Known Member

    Sep 9, 2019
    Alrighty! Updated version plus I got a bit artsy in the corners lol. What’s the pink country gobbling up the Anazza btw?

    Attached Files:

  11. Basileus_Komnenos Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαιων Αὔγουστος

    Dec 20, 2018
    But Germanicus was a Roman General. He was Augustus’s grandnephew. He avenged Rome and restored its honor after the massive loss at Teutoberg. Germanicus utterly ravaged Germany. His skill saw him capture Arminus’s family and put such fear into the other German chieftains that they killed Arminus and made peace with the Romans. Germanicus became massively popular in Rome after this. He led three campaigns in Germania and recovered 2/3 lost eagles. Tacitus even states that had it not been for Tiberius’s stubbornness, Germanicus likely could have conquered all of Magna Germania for the Empire.

    If anything these victories would bring back classical nostalgia to the Romans. Titles like Germanicus meant victor in Germany in Latin. The Greek version for Germanicus is Germanos, so Demitrios could call himself Germanos as an honorific.

    Fully agreed. Even after the Cold War where Germany was reduced to rubble and then divided and occupied for decades, it still was able to claim a leading position in Europe by virtue of its geographical position alone.
  12. RogueTraderEnthusiast Winner: WillamOfOckham "Most Title" 2018

    Jun 15, 2016
    I mean, brilliant analysis - but I was just going Germany-Ra-Ra-Ra there. Though Demetrius III Germanicus "The Forgotten Emperor" is a confusing title. Maybe Germanicus goes to one of the Generals?

    Yeah, Germany gonna be fiiiine. If anything, it could come out of the war stronger. Ideally without the pretensions of being the HRE, but stronger for sure.
  13. Frame Well-Known Member

    Sep 9, 2019
    Are there any settlements in otl cape of good hope?
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  14. Curtain Jerker Well-Known Member

    Oct 26, 2018
    I'm almost positive there are none. I think I read a while ago that all that's down there is either a Triune or Lotharingian way station to help provision passing ships but nothing remotely close to a settlement or colony. I'm on mobile with spotty service so I can't easily search the archives however so I could be wrong.
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  15. JSC Member

    May 9, 2006
    This is far from the end for the Germans but might be the end of the HRE. Looking at other major powers this is no worse a time than the Triunes suffered when all of France was lost and England was under imminent threat of invasion; when Rome literally lost all of Europe including Constantinople; when Russia sundered and Polish troops were raiding into Kiev; or when the Ottomans were beaten to almost nothing by Shah Rukh.

    All of the powers have come back from it. They have reformed and become different and I expect Germany to be no different. As for the Triunes it is one thing to take the Rhineland and Lotharingia it is another to hold it for more than a generation. I still think the Triunes are in for a long period of instability and near civil war once they have anything less than an administrative genius leading them. Adding chunks of Lotharingia is just going to add to the inequities between the 3 kingdoms.

    To be clear, on land Lotharingia is mostly spent now with the loss of the Reichsarmee and the Triunes armies; which are mostly French; have a time consuming but straightforward task of seizing down the various fortresses. On sea however the Lotharingians still have a fully intact navy that is used to working in the relatively shallow waters off shore and is likely going to give the Triune navy; which is mostly English; a badly bloody nose. At the end not only will the rich lands be added to the French kingdom; despite the English blood that has been lost; but the English parliament will lose out on the tariffs that until now they received from the formerly Foreign port of Antwerp at minimum and possibly even Rotterdam.

    Winning the war is ripe for opening a large rift between England and France which are still very much separate entities. It won’t even be the nobility necessarily. It will be the merchants and traders that will feel the damage to the navy most acutely and will resent the expanding French trading that will come from adding Lotharingian lands to the French kingdom.

    And what happens when that civil war kicks off when the navy ends up English but the army ends up’s the classic whale and bear scenario. And which side does the King pick, his English roots or his French demographic centre. Gonna be a huge low level mess that could keep them occupied on internal matters for a generation during which Germany, Spain, and Rome can all take bites out of the Triunes Kingdom and overseas empire.
  16. JSC Member

    May 9, 2006
    great map! Even if not canon gives a good idea more or less the state of the works currently.
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  17. ImperatorAlexander Well-Known Member

    Dec 15, 2011
    Well compared to Odysseus “Persian Slayer” it’s not that hard to be over shadowed.
  18. Babyrage Well-Known Member

    Oct 11, 2016
    To be honest they already had theirs.
    From Frederick III to before Theodor. They went from the lows of the Hungarian War up to the Great Northern War, to their absurdly powerful position after the Brother’s War.
    A series of strong, powerful, long lived Emperors, Theodor just threw it all away.
  19. Basileus444 Well-Known Member

    Oct 30, 2011
    Yeah, it’s not looking so good.

    She’s a twice-widow now. But she’s a tough one.

    Henri was expecting some kind of push in southeast Germany, but the raid into southwest Germany was not something he would’ve predicted. And there’s no way he could’ve predicted the outcome at Wennenden.

    Stuttgart is safe from the Romans. The remnants of the Reichsarmee congregated there and it’s far easier to smash an army in the field than storm a fortress.

    As for Ottokar, his first priority is Ottokar.

    Oh, the Germans don’t. The Romans around Munich are getting to ‘enjoy’ the experience of being on the other end of enraged peasant guerrillas.

    Regarding Roman supply lines, forget the outcome of the battle and take a look at the strategic picture a week earlier when the Romans are besieging Ulm. The Romans have 16000 men (actually a bit less at this stage) and are already suffering from some supply issues, hence the need to get at the stores in Ulm. Southwest Germany alone, without outside support, was able to muster an army more than twice that size against said Romans.

    The Romans really had outrun their supply range, but managed to get away with it here because the small force they could send was comprised of high-quality veterans with excellent experienced officers and Strategos.

    Munich marks the edge of the supply range of ‘major Roman armies’, but if one decreases the size of the army, one can support them further. But the Romans are definitely pushing it here as far as it will goes.

    Finally one can pull some impressive tactical feats even with logistics being bad. Malplaquet was fought much closer to Marlborough’s original base than Blenheim was. But having said that, it is most certainly not a war-winning strategy. Wennenden is a brilliant flash, brilliant but also just a flash.

    More on this, and Roman logistics, in the next update.

    Guess who just made his debut in the update I’m currently writing?

    Thank you,

    Pomerania doesn’t have the population to dominate the HRE. Bohemia’s the only option at this stage.

    Pomerania might become influential economically, but it just doesn’t have the numbers. At most it might be like Venice vis-à-vis Renaissance Italy, undoubtedly rich, influential, and a major player, but no one would say Venice dominated Italy.

    Underestimating Elizabeth is a good way to get one killed.

    “End of Civilization scheduled for Friday at 4:30 PM.”

    It’s not looking good.

    In their defense, at this point the Germans were coming with a 2+ to 1 advantage in numbers. If you think you can’t beat an opposing army with those odds, you should just throw in the towel.

    Wennenden will be one for the military manuals.

    Regarding logistics, you can see my comments a bit further up. Basically, Roman logistics are crap right now but they’re getting away with it, temporarily, thanks to excellent tactics. It’s not a sustainable situation though.

    There will be a pushback against the growing brutality. It is a phase rather than the new modus operandi, but the pushback will be some years in coming.

    Somebody’s been paying attention.

    Yeah, Friedrich Zimmermann is going to be a very important character in just a few updates. And even with Vauban, the Lotharingian Lower Rhine has a lot of hard nuts to crack.

    Definitely. The war is continuing because the Romans wish it to continue.

    Ever heard of the Dunkirkers? Think that.

    That sentiment is growing rapidly in Constantinople, and will be becoming a major plot point going forward very soon.

    Yeah, Germany and the HRE survived the OTL 30 Years War, so they’re tough. Germany certainly isn’t going to go away.

    This is definitely one of Demetrios III’s dumbest moments, but it happens to everyone. Plus as has been pointed out, the Triunes are far enough away than even an ascendant Triple Monarchy is limited in the amount of damage even it could do to Rhomania. Henri II would have to get to a Napoleon 1811 power level for that to change.

    The idea of Germany isn’t going to die. I don’t think that would be possible without wiping out the Germans.

    Germany will be looking quite different when the dust settles.

    Yeah, there’s a difference between what the Triunes can seize now during this window of opportunity and what they can hold on a generational scale.

    Pretty much this.

    The exact timeline and details aren’t set, although the general scope is, and the Triunes will not enjoy the 1650-1670 period as they’re enjoying the 1630-1650 period.

    That is the most logical aspect behind Roman actions in Germany, aside from the revenge aspects. It is a way of showcasing their power and reach. Although it would’ve been nice if they’d done that without torpedoing a coherent anti-Triune response currently being mustered.

    As always, excellent observation and analyses. Thanks.

    Looks good. One point is that China is much too big. It should look comparable to late Ming borders. Also real Vijayanagar control doesn’t extend north of the Vindhyas (anything beyond that is mere lip service). The Gangetic plain is divided between Triune Bengal, a Sikh blob around Delhi and Agra, and Awadh which controls everything in between.

    I’ll be focusing in more detail in the future on India and Southeast Asia so there’ll be changes once those are established, but again it looks good. Thank you.

    North America is pretty much Rhomania’s radars. They have a lot of other balls to juggle. If the Romans seriously started to pressure the Triunes in North America, King’s Harbor would be able to shut that down quite quickly. Already the Roman fleet sent to the Caribbean was greeted the next year by a significantly stronger Triune fleet that bottled it up in Jamaica

    TTL Mexico didn’t get all the Spanish conquistadors and expeditions, so it’s smaller than OTL Spanish America. No Florida, no Caribbean, no Central America. Incans were only conquered a couple of decades ago ITTL.

    But what if this is the Triunes’ age of miracles? ;)

    That would the Howeitat tribal confederacy, allied with the Ottomans (think modern Lakhmids).

    Demetrios isn’t the type to take honorifics like that. He’s not a flashy individual.

    The Triunes have a just-established colony there. This is the first I’ve mentioned it, but it’ll be official once I get to the regional update(s) covering Africa. Ships have been stopping off at the Cape to provision and trade with the natives for a century, but this is the start of colonization.

    Again, excellent analysis. This is a good time to be a Triune, but I am laying seeds for later in the century when it is decidedly less fun. I’m planning on a series of regional updates coming up and the first will be the Triple Monarchy, which will help show the challenges that Henri II’s successors will face.
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  20. Lascaris Well-Known Member

    Jun 16, 2005
    And that's why I was calling for a Greek or Ethiopian colony there. Well nothing that a couple squadrons of liners and a few regiments, can't take care of with extreme prejudice in the next war, declared or undeclared...