An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[Raiyleigh]

B444 would need to confirm but I think Turks comprise a majority of Southern Mesopotamia and a plurality in Central Mesopotamia. Not to mention that the number of Assyrians is likely to be far to small to be able to hold any kind of state together without a lot of support, at which point why not just annex it?

A buffer state, and to put Assyrians (or any other Christian group) who won't convert from other places from within the Empire, where in the future the Rhomani has the population to replace them in Northern Mesoptima/ Inner Syria.
The ratio of how much of Mesoptima is Arabic, Turkic, Kurdish in Central and Southern Mesoptima would need to be confirmed, then the groups can be divided upon religious/ethnic group and played against each other. Rhomani could focus on breaking the Ottoman hold on the Persian Gulf with Oman since the Ottomans control most of Eastern Arabia/Bahrain.

 

[JSC]

We are approaching two things called the War of Wrath and The Great Crime Against the Sunnis...I’m not sure what exactly the Romans are going to do in Mesopotamia/Arabia but I very much doubt client states are going to be part of it.

If I had to speculate; and I’m going to; I wouldn’t be surprised if Rhomania/Georgia after seizing the territory they want go into a pure pillage mode for as far as their logistics will allow. Farms and villages will be depopulated, infrastructure; especially irrigation works; will be destroyed, cities will be brutally sacked and stripped of everything. There will be a constant stream of 100s of thousands of refugees pouring into Persia. I doubt they will reach Mecca again but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Jeddah and Medina sacked as well.

Essentially Rome isn’t going to be looking to expand influence in this next Ottoman war. Aside from territories Rome/Georgia will be annexing they are looking to permanently cripple the Ottomans and the easiest way to do that given the short term advantages Rome will enjoy; finances, logistics, battle hardened army, new reforms bearing fruit; is to quite literally make it a desert and call it peace.

TLDR: Great Crimes does not lead to client states. Tabriz, Jerusalem, Damascus, Mosul are going to be depopulated and restocked with loyal populations. Baghdad, Basra at a minimum are going to be destroyed.

 

[HanEmpire]

We are approaching two things called the War of Wrath and The Great Crime Against the Sunnis...I’m not sure what exactly the Romans are going to do in Mesopotamia/Arabia but I very much doubt client states are going to be part of it.

We already saw the Great Crime. That's the name of the ethnic cleansing campaign that the Romans are conducting against all Sunnis in the Levant. They're all getting enslaved and sold off.

Also the Romans don't need to reach Mecca again since there's nothing there. All the relics got carted off and destroyed or sold.

 

[Raiyleigh]

We already saw the Great Crime. That's the name of the ethnic cleansing campaign that the Romans are conducting against all Sunnis in the Levant. They're all getting enslaved and sold off.

Also the Romans don't need to reach Mecca again since there's nothing there. All the relics got carted off and destroyed or sold.

Egypt counts as part of the Great Crime as well. Rhomani made a client Egypt Coptic state so it is not hard fetch out of the realm of possibility to think of doing the same in Mesoptima.

 

[HanEmpire]

Egypt counts as part of the Great Crime as well. Rhomani made a client Egypt Coptic state so it is not hard fetch out of the realm of possibility to think of doing the same in Mesoptima.

Egypt doesn't count for the Great Crime since the Sunni population there is still going strong. The standard crimes against the conquered aside, the Egyptian Sunnis haven't suffered nearly as much as the Levantine Sunnis since Egypt wasn't ethnically cleansed. There are still Sunni landlords for example, and affluent Sunni families fearing the loss of their privileged positions are one of the defences that Egypt has against the relatively poor Idwaits.

As for the Assyrians, why go for the Coptic solution at all? Make them the Albanians of the East and integrate them instead. The Empire's already fortifying parts of their homeland, and there's no way that the Assyrians and other Christian groups over there will have the resources to properly upkeep such moneysinks on their own. Much more fitting to make them accepted heretics within the Empire's direct rule, like all the other Semitic groups in the Levant.

 

[Imperial Inkstand-filler]

Egypt doesn't count for the Great Crime since the Sunni population there is still going strong. The standard crimes against the conquered aside, the Egyptian Sunnis haven't suffered nearly as much as the Levantine Sunnis since Egypt wasn't ethnically cleansed. There are still Sunni landlords for example, and affluent Sunni families fearing the loss of their privileged positions are one of the defences that Egypt has against the relatively poor Idwaits.

As for the Assyrians, why go for the Coptic solution at all? Make them the Albanians of the East and integrate them instead. The Empire's already fortifying parts of their homeland, and there's no way that the Assyrians and other Christian groups over there will have the resources to properly upkeep such moneysinks on their own. Much more fitting to make them accepted heretics within the Empire's direct rule, like all the other Semitic groups in the Levant.

B444 directly described Roman actions in Egypt as genocide.

 

[HanEmpire]

B444 directly described Roman actions in Egypt as genocide.

I know, and it still pales in comparison to what's going on in the Levant.

 

[Evilprodigy]

B444 directly described Roman actions in Egypt as genocide.

I think it's a seperate genocide from the Great Crime

 

[JSC]

We already saw the Great Crime. That's the name of the ethnic cleansing campaign that the Romans are conducting against all Sunnis in the Levant. They're all getting enslaved and sold off.

Also the Romans don't need to reach Mecca again since there's nothing there. All the relics got carted off and destroyed or sold.

I don’t think that was/is the Great Crime (TM). It was brutal yes but it also wasn’t “that” far off base of what would happen frequently to rebelling populations in that time period. Also the Romans are no longer in possession of the at majority of the Sunni population in the Levant since they only kept the Hellenized coastal strip in the peace with the Ottomans.

I will also point out that in previous updates it has been said that the Roman Army in the middle 3rd of the 17th century was exceptionally brutal. We are just getting into that time period now and I really don’t think an exceptionally brutal army is going to be conducive to setting up clients.

 

[HanEmpire]

I will also point out that in previous updates it has been said that the Roman Army in the middle 3rd of the 17th century was exceptionally brutal. We are just getting into that time period now and I really don’t think an exceptionally brutal army is going to be conducive to setting up clients.

Oh, I missed this part.

Then I'm gonna guess that the Great Crime is a systematic and thorough destruction of the Mesopotamian region's capacity to support an advanced civilization, an echo of the Mongol Invasion. The irrigation system's gonna go again.

 

[Evilprodigy]

Oh, I missed this part.

Then I'm gonna guess that the Great Crime is a systematic and thorough destruction of the Mesopotamian region's capacity to support an advanced civilization, an echo of the Mongol Invasion. The irrigation system's gonna go again.

Dam the Tigris and Euphrates and direct them to the Sinai.

 

[Curtain Jerker]

There's also Roman armies supporting both Hungarian claims to Austria and Vlachian claims to Polish Galicia. Either or both of them could be brutal as well.

If Roman armies burn all of Austria, Galicia, and Mesopotamia at roughly the same time, combined with whatever terror is going on in Island Asia and Terranova that could easily be enough to get a reputation for brutality.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

How do the Romans feel about their Latin Roman past? They were after all descended from the Italian peninsula, surely there are some neo-Justinianites pushing for Renovati Imperii. I feel like Latin would be used as the administration language in Rhomania's Western European provinces. Plus North Africa still had Afro-Romance speaking communities even during the 8th Crusade during the late 13th Century.

In regards to 18th century Liberalism and and Nationalism, I agree with the points the others made that Rhomania stands as a stark refutation of it. Since Rhomania is ascendant here and its still intact with Constantinople rebuilt, there is little reason for many Roman scholars to flee Westwards. They only fled during the 14th and 15th centuries during the Pailoilogian Renaissance after the Byzantine State was collapsing from Civil Wars, Ottoman invasions, and war with the Bulgarians and Serbs. Plus I don't see people like Gibbon spreading the notion that Eastern Romans were nothing but Schismatic Greeks. Rome is one of the oldest continuous civilizations lasting from 753 BCE to the 17 Century in the current timeline. That's well over 2,000 years of history right there. Plus the idea of Republics are likely discredited because of Venice and Genoa just being aristocratic city states gradually reduced to irrelevancy with the rise of larger nation states like France. The Roman Republic is likely remembered by the Romans as a failure. The citizens of the Empire likely view the Empire as superior in a sense since they have lasted for over 1,000 years facing many crises. If some Enlightenment thinker in say France or England criticizes the Basileus as a despotic tyrant, the Romans might see the other nations as barbaric for not having an all powerful Emperor to check the nobles and maintain order in the land. Also what happened to the Roman Senate of Constantinople? Are they still around? If so, what is its function?

How has Byzantine Art changed over the centuries? Has their been a movement towards Neo-Classicalism where the Romans start straying away from the abstract and looking to imitate their ancient forefathers' classical art style. Are marble busts like the Old Roman society used up until the 7th century still in vogue. The last Emperor known to have such a statue was the Emperor Heraclius.

What happened to the Emperors' tombs and Byzantine monuments after the sack of Constantinople? I remember reading that the tombs of Emperors like Basil II and Justinian the Great were looted by the Crusaders with Basil's body being dumped onto the street. Did the Empire rebuild the old tombs and monuments that were destroyed during the Fourth Crusade?

 

[JSC]

There's also Roman armies supporting both Hungarian claims to Austria and Vlachian claims to Polish Galicia. Either or both of them could be brutal as well.

I don’t think they are going to be any worse than typical mid 17th century armies in Austria and Galicia. After all this territories are going to allies. In addition they don’t want to break Germany this point since they don’t want to Triunes to walk in. Poland proper may be due for some harsh treatment and I’m sure there will be incidents in Germany but overall I think the main victims of this brutality will be Mesopotamia and Island Asia.

 

[Khaine]

@UoBLoyalist: This is the first time I’ve used the term ITTL. As a broad scope it refers to the ethnic cleansing of Sunnis, although ITTL it often refers to a specific event that hasn’t happened yet.

We already saw the Great Crime. That's the name of the ethnic cleansing campaign that the Romans are conducting against all Sunnis in the Levant. They're all getting enslaved and sold off.

Also the Romans don't need to reach Mecca again since there's nothing there. All the relics got carted off and destroyed or sold.

So we still are going to see the event that is specifically referred to as the crime.

 

[boringasian]

B444 directly described Roman actions in Egypt as genocide.

I know, and it still pales in comparison to what's going on in the Levant.

I think it's a seperate genocide from the Great Crime

These series of comments just keep on getting darker, my god.

 

[Raiyleigh]

Oh, I missed this part.

Then I'm gonna guess that the Great Crime is a systematic and thorough destruction of the Mesopotamian region's capacity to support an advanced civilization, an echo of the Mongol Invasion. The irrigation system's gonna go again.

A good question would be if the Great Crime is targeted solely on Mesoptima/Ottomans as a whole or in general Sunni Islam because we could see Rhomani client states/allies participating in different regions. Egypt/Ethiopia with the Idawties, Ethiopia into Yemen, Carthage trying to regain lost lands and reconnect with the Rhomani African possessions and Georgia into Tabriz and Persia.

 

[Cryostorm]

A good question would be if the Great Crime is targeted solely on Mesoptima/Ottomans as a whole or in general Sunni Islam because we could see Rhomani client states/allies participating in different regions. Egypt/Ethiopia with the Idawties, Ethiopia into Yemen, Carthage trying to regain lost lands and reconnect with the Rhomani African possessions and Georgia into Tabriz and Persia.

Well, from what we have gotten so far the great crime is on Sunni Arabs, other Sunni groups like the Kurds, Turks, and Persians aren't really looked down upon. So I think it's mostly the wholesale ethnic cleansing that has been hinted that Rhomania is going to do in the Levant, North Mesopotamian, and North African territories that they end up with later this century. That or B444 is going to throw a real curve ball at us.

 

[Curtain Jerker]

I don’t think they are going to be any worse than typical mid 17th century armies in Austria and Galicia. After all this territories are going to allies. In addition they don’t want to break Germany this point since they don’t want to Triunes to walk in. Poland proper may be due for some harsh treatment and I’m sure there will be incidents in Germany but overall I think the main victims of this brutality will be Mesopotamia and Island Asia.

We don't know what D3 wants to do with Germany. Hell, he doesn't know what he wants to do with Germany.

In domestic policy and in other foreign affairs, Demetrios III Sideros knows what he wants and acts accordingly. But regarding Germany, the two sides oscillate, with the result that Demetrios III’s policy is rather schizophrenic, sometimes conciliatory and sometimes brutal.

BTW, I'm pulling for Elizabeth the Unbowed. Hopefully she can pull a rabbit out of her hat and keep her family somewhat strong in the coming storm. She got a raw deal as Empress and then got swept up in Theodor's ambitions. I hope there's more to her story.

 

[Evilprodigy]

Well, from what we have gotten so far the great crime is on Sunni Arabs, other Sunni groups like the Kurds, Turks, and Persians aren't really looked down upon. So I think it's mostly the wholesale ethnic cleansing that has be hinted that Rhomania is going to do in the Levant, North Mesopotamian, and North African territories that the end with later this century. That or B444 is going to throw a real curve ball at us.

inb4 'The Great Crime' just turns out to be when a Genoese cook didn't allow substitutions on the pasta.

IT'S THE FIRST WAR OF LATIN MICRO-AGGRESSION!