Ameriwank Derailed -La République du Québec 1789

OK
1775- Arnold takes his troops north into Nova Scotia, and like the Baron of Boston in 1745 takes the British Fortress controlling the St Lawrence.
course there are only a couple thousand troops there.
1776 - Nova Scotia sends delegates to Philadelphia. British evacuate New York to Charleston. Arnold takes Montreal. AoC Written.
1777- Quebec sends delegates to Philadelphia. AoC not ratified but Congress operating as if it was.
Intense negotiations Ongoing over western claims. With Quebec in the Ring these now include Quebec's Southern claims, [Ohio Valley, Ontario peninsula , Michigan, Vermont]
1781- War ends, Virginia, Quebec give up Claims. In return for Quebec giving up it's southern claims, US recognizes Quebec Northern Claims.
1782- Maryland approves AoC, US becomes official.
1783- Treaty of Paris - Britain gives up all NAmerican Claims. US includes Nova Scotia, Quebec, Bermuda, Bahamas.
1787- Constitutional Convention. Quebec has major problems, but Signs in the end.
1788- Ratifying Conventions, Quebec is one of the last to hold it's own. and the Consitution is TURNED DOWN
1789- Two new Republics are formed, The United States and La République du Québec.

?So How does this Play out.? ?Do Whe end with a Trans Continental Quebec, instead of Canada.
 
I don't see a Quebec spanning the continent for a few reasons. First off, the US is still gonna attract more immigrants than Quebec would, many more considering the rather better climate and land. Second is that, with the US controlling the Ontario peninsula, Quebec's already flanked and the US has decent claims on a good bit of the west. Third, the US could rather easily bully Quebec into giving up any westward expansion. I don't see them tolerating the possibility of a French-speaking, largely Catholic, republic spanning North America, particularly if it doesn't have a sponsor. And neither France nor Britain is gonna go to bat for Quebec.
 
1783- Treaty of Paris - Britain gives up all NAmerican Claims. US includes Nova Scotia, Quebec, Bermuda, Bahamas.
This i have big problems with. You've shown no reason for Britain to relinquish claims to Rupertsland or British Columbia.

1777- Intense negotiations Ongoing over western claims. With Quebec in the Ring these now include Quebec's Southern claims, [Ohio Valley, Ontario peninsula , Michigan, Vermont]
1781- War ends, Virginia, Quebec give up Claims. In return for Quebec giving up it's southern claims, US recognizes Quebec Northern Claims.
All the maps i've seen show Quebec to have a strip between Rupertsland and Lake Superior. Do they retain this strip?

1789- Two new Republics are formed, The United States and La République du Québec.
Just for the record, does anyone join Quebec?

Second is that, with the US controlling the Ontario peninsula, Quebec's already flanked and the US has decent claims on a good bit of the west.
If Quebec buys Louisiana, could be the US that gets flanked.

What I see is a more maritime oriented USA, perhaps getting some overseas colonies. Quebec+Louisiana gets a large portion of the immigrants (maybe New Orleans get something equivalent to Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty), both overseas and overland from the USA. Rupertsland is sold to British Columbia. Russia keeps Alaska 'cause they don't want to sell it to the British. Quebecois immigrants to the more northern provinces of Mexico lead to several covertly supported revolts and maybe a minor border war or two, but no Mexican-American War analogue.

I'd like to do a map of this. Maybe.
 
If Quebec buys Louisiana, could be the US that gets flanked.

That is a possibility I hadn't considered. However, I doubt Quebec would be able to offer as much as the US, and Napoleon, or whoever would be ruling France, would be in dire need of as much funding as possible.
 
That is a possibility I hadn't considered. However, I doubt Quebec would be able to offer as much as the US, and Napoleon, or whoever would be ruling France, would be in dire need of as much funding as possible.


Alright, I think I have the solution to the above problem. So here goes. Instead of becoming a republic, Quebec becomes a free nation with the Catholic Church functioning as the main form of government. Quebec, along with the U.S. establish close ties with the Kingdom of France. When the French Revolution comes around the Monarch flees to Quebec and butterflies causes Europe to be ruined by a strange pseudo-Civil War. With Spain's and France's power weakened, the French Monarch convinces the U.S. to help Quebec reclaim Louisiana. The U.S. agrees but demands that Quebec "gives" the U.S. control of the French Caribbean, shared and equal use of the Mississippi River, and that Quebec's new government essentially becomes a Constitutional Monarchy, which would protect the basic rights of its citizens. (At least the White Christian Males anyway:rolleyes:) Thus the Royal Republic/Democratic Kingdom(or Empire) of Quebec-Louisiana is born!!:D
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Would Quebec at this time really want to be a republic, or would it rejoin France?

It would like to join France, but the peace treaty would likely forbid it*, Quebec would as a result likely end up as a independent monarchy.

*Both the the Americans and English would be against a French presents in Canada.
 
A Quebec-bought Louisiana Purchase area doesn't keep it Quebec forever. The US will get a lot more immigrants, and the land will still get a lot of US settlers going west, who will soon outnumber the Quebeckers (not hard, since there were no French on the vast majority of the Louisiana Purchase). You'll just get the California Bear Republic scenario a bit earlier and to the east, during which US citizens effectively secede from a neighbor to the USA and the neighbor is too weak, militarily and demographically, to do anything about it even if they try. Quebec can keep modern-day Louisiana, since they probably have enough people there - assuming they don't lose it in a war. Most of the rest of the Purchase? Not going to happen.
 
I think a an independent Quebec would draw lots of Irish and catholic German settlers decades before they really were aloud into the US. Perhaps we could seriously mitigate the Irish deaths during the famine with a friendly place for them to settle.
 
This i have big problems with. You've shown no reason for Britain to relinquish claims to Rupertsland* or British Columbia.
OK I admit I hadn't thought about Rupertsland or BC [or Newfoundland and Labrador either]
?But then Did Britain have claims in BC during the 1770's? and Rupertsland belongs to the Hudson Bay company, not to Britain.
Newfoundland and Labrador, don't have enuff people for either side to care about, except these would be Quebec's northern Claims.
I see the US states of Ontario having a northern border -Lake Ontario across to Georgian Bay, With Quebec taking the rest of Ontario Province.
The US lets Quebec worry about Rupertsland, and the British. and the US claims the Canadian Great Plains when it takes Louisiana.
 
?But then Did Britain have claims in BC during the 1770's?

It did, but the question wasn't really formalized till the Nootka Conventions of the 1790s.

By the way, didn't the province of Quebec extend to the great lakes and beyond before the revolution? There could be a conflict here...
 
By the way, didn't the province of Quebec extend to the great lakes and beyond before the revolution? There could be a conflict here...
1777- Quebec sends delegates to Philadelphia. AoC not ratified but Congress operating as if it was.
Intense negotiations Ongoing over western claims.
With Quebec in the Ring these now include Quebec's Southern claims, [Ohio Valley, Ontario peninsula , Michigan, Vermont]
1781- War ends, Virginia, Quebec give up Claims. In return for Quebec giving up it's southern claims, US recognizes Quebec Northern Claims.
I negotiated them away
 
The land claims dispute between Québec and Virginia only existed south of the Great Lakes. There's no reason that in this scenario la République du Québec shouldn't hold onto the territory that made up Upper and Lower Canada, with Labrador added on to boot.

I think the best way to create a North America where the US is bordered to the north by a "Greater Québec" is for Montréal to become the main destination of Irish immigration. A République du Québec would be Catholic, and a natural magnet for the Irish. In OTL, the main entry point for Irish immigrants during the Potato famine was New Orleans. Of course, the Liverpool-New Orleans cotton trade was the main reason for this, but the fact that New Orleans was the only majority-Catholic city in the US at the time is a big reason why so many stayed here (I live in a neighborhood called the "Irish Channel"). In New Orleans, St. Paddy's Day is only upstaged by Mardi Gras, with parades and block parties throughout the city.

If there were a Catholic country in North America, that would be the main destination of most Irish immigrants. That increase in population would give impetus to economic growth, thus drawing a greater share of European immigration.

With this situation, you get other butterflies, as well. With a stronger Québec, majority Catholic, facing a USA that is much more Protestant than it would be OTL, where do the Jews from eastern Europe go? OTL, bagels are nearly as common in Montréal as New York... what if Jewish immigrants found a more welcoming society NORTH of the border?

It's not only an Anglophone society that can create a multi-cultural society based on respect. Louisiana existed as a French colony where there was never a majority of people hailing from France. Into the 20th century, immigrant families would move in to the depths of Acadiana and become Francophones in one generation. It's not weird to meet people who totally identify with Cajun culture, yet carry names like Riley or Nuñez. A lot of "Cajun" names are in fact francisations of German names, like "Favre (Faber)" or "Oubre (Weber)." I see no reason why there can't be a multi-ethnic Francohone nation to the north of the US.
 
The land claims dispute between Québec and Virginia only existed south of the Great Lakes. There's no reason that in this scenario la République du Québec shouldn't hold onto the territory that made up Upper and Lower Canada, with Labrador added on to boot.
Those are all the questions that would go into the Negotiations, OTL they took 5 years to reach agreement on them.
I gave thought to having it take another couple years, but that would have butterflies for the NW ordinance,
Labrador would be part of Quebec's Northern Claims. ?The AoC US agreed to support Quebec in them, would the 1789 US do the Same?
 
A Quebec-bought Louisiana Purchase area doesn't keep it Quebec forever. The US will get a lot more immigrants, and the land will still get a lot of US settlers going west, who will soon outnumber the Quebeckers (not hard, since there were no French on the vast majority of the Louisiana Purchase). You'll just get the California Bear Republic scenario a bit earlier and to the east, during which US citizens effectively secede from a neighbor to the USA and the neighbor is too weak, militarily and demographically, to do anything about it even if they try. Quebec can keep modern-day Louisiana, since they probably have enough people there - assuming they don't lose it in a war. Most of the rest of the Purchase? Not going to happen.
Hmm, right. Good point. What would tell would be what relations are like between USA and LRQ, and what alliances LRQ makes during the intervening years between the Purchase and secession. I'd figure secession would occur somewhere between the 1840 to 1870s. Wasn't France fairly powerful at that time? I think Britain would feel threatened by the USA, but (why) would they back LRQ?

Could be that LRQ would set limitations on American immigrants. 'Twould strain relations between the nations. And any immigrants into New Orleans would be one less American immigrant.

Another question is how does LRQ relate with the native peoples? OTL, the French had a good record with that sort of things. If the USA tries to seize a section of the plains, a bunch of armed Sioux could make their lives hell on Earth.
 
Those are all the questions that would go into the Negotiations, OTL they took 5 years to reach agreement on them.
I gave thought to having it take another couple years, but that would have butterflies for the NW ordinance,
Labrador would be part of Quebec's Northern Claims. ?The AoC US agreed to support Quebec in them, would the 1789 US do the Same?

If I remember correctly from history class, Newfoundland didn't officially lay claim to coastal Labrador until 1809. Before that time, I believe is would have been considered part of Québec as per the Act that enlarged the colony in 1774, the source of the conflict that would eventually be created between it and Virginia in TTL. The Virginians will get the land between the Ohio and the Lakes. Since none of the Atlantic colonies have any claims to the Ontario Peninsula, I expect that to remain a part of Québec. The fate of Rupert's Land becomes of great import now.

Another butterfly could be the fate of the Oregon Country. Do the Brits try to make it a going concern to keep a toe-hold on the North American continent?
 
Those are all the questions that would go into the Negotiations, OTL they took 5 years to reach agreement on them.
I gave thought to having it take another couple years, but that would have butterflies for the NW ordinance,
Labrador would be part of Quebec's Northern Claims. ?The AoC US agreed to support Quebec in them, would the 1789 US do the Same?

Okay your going to have to be quite succinct in what you mean by northern claims when your referring to Quebec. What you are currently suggesting does not make any sense at all...

Along with the Quebec act which extended the borders of Quebec to include the valley of the Ohio and the entire St. Lawrence Grt Lakes basin. Administration of the Coast of Labrador was also redistributed. The southern
shore (North shore of the G. of St.Lawrence) and the islands of same Gulf were transferred from the Fishing post of Newfoundland to Quebec as well but the entire northern coast of Labrador was reaffirmed as remaining in the jurisdiction of Newfoundland. If Newfoundland remains a Br. possession then so does that coast. As to the rest of the northern claims. They do not extend beyond the height of land separating the Grt. Lakes and St. Lawrence from Hudson's Bay.
those lands to the North..are Rupert's land a territory controlled and administered by the HBC. A commercial entity yes but under the protection and operating under charter from the Br. Crown. Its unlikely that a Quebec entity would be able to successfully push any claims in this region against the Br. Crown.

The only effective northern claims of Quebec would be the "Haute Pays". The entirety of what would become OTL Upper Canada (The name is not just made up after all It is the extension of its"Lower French speaking cousins") the State of Ontario that you suggest would not exist. These are the only "northern claims" that the Quebec entity would have that would be of any consequence to them. Anything less and you are offering them a bunch of Rock, stunted forest and tundra. Long before your negotiations ended...all the powers of any influence in Quebec ( Clerics, Seigneurs and yes yankee mercantile interests) would probably invite the Brits back to keep the Americans out of the rightful backyard of Montreal. If not the Brits they would certainly argue for a stronger French presence... Afterall if this is what they get from rebelling against the Brits in favour of "les Americains" ( to whom they have no affinity to begin with and indeed a long history of hostility where New England is concerned, ....need I say more) Well that s the reason they didn't rebel in the first place remember... ( guarantees of Religion language and an Economic hinterland for the merchant class of Montreal)..Obviously such a disposition that you suggest would leave a very "Sour" taste indeed among the Quebecois regarding "les Americains"..

As to form of gov't. Republic perhaps but a very conservative one at that. There are still less than 200,000 Quebecois at this point ( and it of all the possessions of the Brits in North America still has the feel of the Ancien Regime to it). France would want to receive it back if they could as a prid pro quo for their support of the American rebellion. They are going to want something to show for there efforts after all. Thats not likely to be on of course but a Cadet branch of the Bourbon's may be likely in some kind of Arm's length fashion. Say a Grand Duchy under Louis-Stanislas or Charles-Phillippe ( and not in direct line of succession to the Crown of France except through exceptional circumstances). Informal but separate links to the Crown of France and within the Economic hinterland of New England but with commercial interest for the French as well.
Any Quebecois regime would immediately lift the ban on settling west of Montreal of course in the same way that the Americans are moving into the Ohio, the Quebecois would begin settling in the Upper St. Lawrence and Grt. lakes. South Ontario in that respect is prime real estate for them. Given their historically good relations with the natives..this should go reasonably as smoothly as in OTL as the spread west would probably be more gradual unlike the rapid settlement of loyalists in the region OTL.. I'd be surprised actually if the Quebecois and natives of the region did not assimilate to each other to avoid being swamped by the Americans.

If the Revolution in France still goes off Quebec would be a bastion of royalist support...If Louis -Stanislas or Charles are in Quebec though.. they will not be in France agitating for counter revolution. The flames that gave birth to the more radical elements of the revolution may not be present and France may just make the transition to Constitutional monarchy. In which case the destruction of the revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars will be avoided, along with all the blood shed. There will be a huge surplus of French speaking Catholics and Catholics from across Europe to to settle in Quebec and Latin America (New Spain, Rio de La Plata, New Granada and Peru) as well as Brazil.

Of course with France transitioning to C.M. There is the whole matter of Poland-Lithuania and its final partition to blow things into the dumper if you will. But I think things are a little too far gone by the 1790's.
 
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Since none of the Atlantic colonies have any claims to the Ontario Peninsula, I expect that to remain a part of Québec.

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I just posted a little map inspired by this thread on Map Thread IV.
 
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