America's fighting women:A search for good POD's.

[BlondieBC]

As for ground troops, It may take a year or so, but by 1984, you'd see the first female grunts and tankers showing up. First combat for them would be Panama in '89, then DESERT SHIELD/STORM.

The US military does follow orders. The first infantry women could be within 15-16 weeks of the amendment taking effect. I am sure there would be at least 6 women waiting to sign up on day one, and training is only 13 weeks or so. A lot of excuse could be made, but in reality, you simply make platoon (50) slots of the 10,000 slots at Fort Benning available, and transfer one female drill sergeant in that is a women. She handles the administrative stuff for the platoon, the 2 male sergeants handle the daytime training. I am sure that with 4 months of telling the commanding General of infantry training to train women infantry, the first women will graduate. Only the President or other civilian dragging their feet will cause it to be a few years.

 

[Matt Wiser]

The military likes to do things right. While you probably would have volunteers wanting to do it once it took effect, DOD would probably tell the President (and Congress for that matter) that "we want to make sure integration goes smoothly." Just like they've done IRL with female aviators and sailors. You do it one unit or ship at a time, the ships need to have the "female mods" installed and so on. When the restrictions on female aircrew and sailors were lifted in '93, it took six months before the first females were able to report to their new unit or ship. You'd have the same thing here. The hardest wouldn't be female armor or infantry: it'd be women on subs. Which the USN is going through right now IRL.

 

[BlondieBC]

The military likes to do things right. While you probably would have volunteers wanting to do it once it took effect, DOD would probably tell the President (and Congress for that matter) that "we want to make sure integration goes smoothly." Just like they've done IRL with female aviators and sailors. You do it one unit or ship at a time, the ships need to have the "female mods" installed and so on. When the restrictions on female aircrew and sailors were lifted in '93, it took six months before the first females were able to report to their new unit or ship. You'd have the same thing here. The hardest wouldn't be female armor or infantry: it'd be women on subs. Which the USN is going through right now IRL.

Sure they will drag their feet, but if the political leaders tell them too, they will do it quickly. An presumably, whatever POD makes the ERA pass gives it super majority support, and just like the supreme court, senior generals are aware of public opinion.

With ships you have more issues of rebuilding, but I don't know what the issues are with infantry equipment. Once in the field, you will use ad hoc out houses or slit trenches or dig a hole in the ground. Showers are a luxury rarely seen in combat. I went through infantry school, and I can tell you the needed changes to the facility are trivial. Each 50 man unit has separate showers, and if one platoon or women is started every 4-8 weeks, the overhead is trivial. For the outhouse at the range, you would just put an extra sheet of plywood up for privacy. In the field exercise, they would just dig a hole by a tree, take a dump, refill hole.

Once with the units, you would have to make some adjustments on barrack housing. I guess initially they women might have to be housed in one floor of one barrack. Surely with 10,000 + men at a fort in an Infantry division, the base commander can figure out housing arrangements.

And i do agree subs are a bit harder as are ships, because quite frankly, the accommodation standards expected are higher than for infantry in the field. I see infantry being done first, as an example of how fast they military is responding, and the delays to be on things like subs and aircraft carriers. Why would the Sec of Defense not like to have a nice headline of how the first platoon of women were integrated into the 1st ID within 120-150 days. A good faith effort here takes a lot of pressure off issues like submarines where they can point to the need to build a new submarine with the appropriate shower facilities.

I spend 10 days with a line infantry unit in the field with an attached female doctor and 2 female nurses. I can assure you the adjustments are trivial. They had a separate tent and one of the outhouses was marked female only. IMO, the separate outhouse and tent had more to do with status as officers than them being female. If you join the infantry and expect that you will never see naked flesh, you are in the wrong job.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Really the practicalities of integration are clearly a non issue if the orders come down. At the end of the day OTL already shows that none of the countries that have fully integrated have had anything like crippling cost or major operational problems. Bear in mind that worldwide the only major operational environment no one has full integrated yet is NUCLEAR submarines, and the missile boats are clearly on the way to it now.

 

[Matt Wiser]

Integration may be easiest in the Army, AF, and to a lesser degree in the Marines, but in the Navy, not so fast. Ships have to go into the yard to get the mods for female sailors, and that was done IRL during scheduled yard periods. The Improved 688-class subs would have to be redesigned for women, as would the Ohio-class boomers still on order, and the Seawolf-class would be the first subs designed from the keel up for women. And the first surface combatants designed from the keel up for females would likely be either the Wasp-class LHDs or the Burke-class destroyers.

And as you point out, Cap Weinberger would want the publicity, and the services would be competing to integrate, but the service chiefs would still want things done in an orderly manner, with as few screwups as possible. But the first combat for women on the ground may or may not be URGENT FURY. Assuming ERA passes in 1982, the Navy would be able to assign female aircrew to carrier air wings during 1983....CVW-6 on Independence might be the first Atlantic Fleet carrier to do so, or CVW-7 on John F. Kennedy. Both saw combat: CVW-6 flew strikes in support of URGENT FURY, and the Lebanon raid that saw CAG-6 get shot down in an A-7, while CVW-7 also flew that mission, with one A-6 down with one KIA and one POW-taken to Damascus and held there for 32 days.

 

[SergeantHeretic]

Integration may be easiest in the Army, AF, and to a lesser degree in the Marines, but in the Navy, not so fast. Ships have to go into the yard to get the mods for female sailors, and that was done IRL during scheduled yard periods. The Improved 688-class subs would have to be redesigned for women, as would the Ohio-class boomers still on order, and the Seawolf-class would be the first subs designed from the keel up for women. And the first surface combatants designed from the keel up for females would likely be either the Wasp-class LHDs or the Burke-class destroyers.

And as you point out, Cap Weinberger would want the publicity, and the services would be competing to integrate, but the service chiefs would still want things done in an orderly manner, with as few screwups as possible. But the first combat for women on the ground may or may not be URGENT FURY. Assuming ERA passes in 1982, the Navy would be able to assign female aircrew to carrier air wings during 1983....CVW-6 on Independence might be the first Atlantic Fleet carrier to do so, or CVW-7 on John F. Kennedy. Both saw combat: CVW-6 flew strikes in support of URGENT FURY, and the Lebanon raid that saw CAG-6 get shot down in an A-7, while CVW-7 also flew that mission, with one A-6 down with one KIA and one POW-taken to Damascus and held there for 32 days.

By timeline of women in the combat arms pecialties is looking REAL GOOD, thank you all for your surrort, you all bring up such good points. I think you all reflect wonderful credit on yourselves. good job.

 

[Matt Wiser]

Glad to be of help. My guess would be that there might be some female paratroopers (not Rangers) in the 82nd who do make URGENT FURY, with ERA passing in '82 as the POD. And there could very well be female aircrew in the A-6s and A-7s (VA-176, VA-15 and VA-87, respectively) flying strikes in support. Usual proceedure in A-6 squadrons was to pair up an experienced pilot with a rookie (nugget in Navy terminology) bombardier/navigator, and vice-versa when new people came into the squadron-if at all possible. Not always, though. Same thing in F-4 and F-14 squadrons: experienced RIO and nugget pilot and vice versa. Note: there were still F-4N and -S squadrons in the Navy until 1986, and in the Reserves until 1987-88. Not sure what the policy was in EA-6B, S-3, or E-2 squadrons, though, when new people arrived, though I'd assume that there'd be two or three experienced hands and one or two newbies.

 

[SergeantHeretic]

Glad to be of help. My guess would be that there might be some female paratroopers (not Rangers) in the 82nd who do make URGENT FURY, with ERA passing in '82 as the POD. And there could very well be female aircrew in the A-6s and A-7s (VA-176, VA-15 and VA-87, respectively) flying strikes in support. Usual proceedure in A-6 squadrons was to pair up an experienced pilot with a rookie (nugget in Navy terminology) bombardier/navigator, and vice-versa when new people came into the squadron-if at all possible. Not always, though. Same thing in F-4 and F-14 squadrons: experienced RIO and nugget pilot and vice versa. Note: there were still F-4N and -S squadrons in the Navy until 1986, and in the Reserves until 1987-88. Not sure what the policy was in EA-6B, S-3, or E-2 squadrons, though, when new people arrived, though I'd assume that there'd be two or three experienced hands and one or two newbies.

(Claps happily like a little girl.) YAY!

 

[Orville_third]

One earlier PoD: During WWII, the Civil Air Patrol was flying antisubmarine patrol missions along the East and Gulf coasts. Women were serving in CAP. If someone allows women to fly anti-sub missions and they get to sink a sub...It's a big story!

Also, a few women flew into Grenada as transport pilots. Eileen Collins was one of them (You'd know her as a Shuttle Pilot).

 

[Matt Wiser]

Indeed she did. And a byproduct of this TL would be that female astronauts who are selected as pilots, not mission specialists, would get chosen sooner than they did IOTL.

 

[Pesterfield]

even a few Women Marines (yes, that's what they were called back then).

Are you sure? I saw an old news reel that mentioned WACs, WAVEs, but when it got to Marines it just said Marines. The Women might have just been dropped since it was obvious though.

For the navy perhaps sometime during the Cold War ballistic missile subs get split crews?

"If war comes those submarines not immediately sunk by enemy action will have the best chance of survival, they need to be able to repopulate the species."

Another way is all female submarine crews, being generally smaller, are seen as space savers.

 

[Matt Wiser]

It would take a while, years, even, before you'd have enough qualified women to fill all slots on a sub. Not just boomers, but fast-attack boats, too (they have a smaller crew). Coed crews, though, would happen, even if boats have to go into the yard, or be modified during construction, to have the "female mods" installed.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

It would take a while, years, even, before you'd have enough qualified women to fill all slots on a sub.

Like ten or more before you could get a legitimately qualified C/O.

 

[Matt Wiser]

At least. It took five years from combat ships opening up to women to the first female skipper. And that's because noncombat ships had been open since the mid '70s, and there were qualified female officers who could screen for command. It's about ten years at least, from reporting out of sub school to graduation from the PCO (Prospective Commanding Officer) Course and eligiblity for command. And that's not including time spent in shore duty assignments. (Staff, DOD, being an instructor at sub school, teaching at either Annapolis or in ROTC, attending advanced schools, etc.) It's more like 15 plus.

 

[SergeantHeretic]

I am thinking that an ERA passage by the COngress and signed by Reagan in '82, (It would really give him a surefire bump for 84 and he would know it.) would end up with women allowed in combat on an official basis by, oh, say 1985, or 86, ballpark figure, with would give us women actually fighting officiallially in Panema, Desert shield/storm and somalia. SOmalia could be a problem as you might have one or two KIA or MIA women grabbed by the Somalis and maltreated/desecrated.

Regardless, by the time of 9-11/war on terror you have women fighting as a matter of course on the front line in the Stan and Iraq.

 

[Matt Wiser]

Remember, there were two female POWs in Iraq during the First Gulf War (Sp. Melissa Rathbun-Nealy and Maj. Rhonda Cornum, both Army). With female combat pilots coming in during the '80s, you'd see maybe 3-4 more women as POWs (AF, Navy, Marines) in '91. Melissa was a truck driver whose partner took a wrong turn, and they got caught in the Battle of Khafji, (31 Jan 91), and were captured by Iraqi forces. Maj. Cornum was a flight surgeon riding in a UH-60 that attempted to rescue a downed USAF pilot on 27 Feb 91, when AAA fire sprayed the Blackhawk. Five men on the crew were killed, and two others, along with Doc Cornum, were captured. Fortunately, it was the last full day of the war, and their captivity was brief (8 days).

FYI a cousin of mine is a USN F/A-18 pilot, and before her first deployment in 1994-5, went through survival training and was told what had happened to both Doc and Melissa. She took a refresher course prior to a 2004 deployment which included what really happened to the two women captured in 2003. Though Doc, Jessica Lynch, and Shoshana Johnson have written books, there's stuff covered in survival schools that are not in the public record.....

 

[SergeantHeretic]

Remember, there were two female POWs in Iraq during the First Gulf War (Sp. Melissa Rathbun-Nealy and Maj. Rhonda Cornum, both Army). With female combat pilots coming in during the '80s, you'd see maybe 3-4 more women as POWs (AF, Navy, Marines) in '91. Melissa was a truck driver whose partner took a wrong turn, and they got caught in the Battle of Khafji, (31 Jan 91), and were captured by Iraqi forces. Maj. Cornum was a flight surgeon riding in a UH-60 that attempted to rescue a downed USAF pilot on 27 Feb 91, when AAA fire sprayed the Blackhawk. Five men on the crew were killed, and two others, along with Doc Cornum, were captured. Fortunately, it was the last full day of the war, and their captivity was brief (8 days).

FYI a cousin of mine is a USN F/A-18 pilot, and before her first deployment in 1994-5, went through survival training and was told what had happened to both Doc and Melissa. She took a refresher course prior to a 2004 deployment which included what really happened to the two women captured in 2003. Though Doc, Jessica Lynch, and Shoshana Johnson have written books, there's stuff covered in survival schools that are not in the public record.....

I knew about the women you mentioned, but when I say women in combat, mean in decent numbers, enough to really draw notice and give the Iraqi's a problem in postwar negotiations if/when they maltreat the POW's.

 

[Matt Wiser]

You'd have to have a more effective Iraqi Air Defense System in the first few days of the war to have more shootdowns: there were 21 total POWs in 1991, and except for Melissa and her male codriver, all were aircrew. Having 4 or 5 additional POWs be women is a possiblity. But the exact nature of their (mis)treatment wouldn't be known until they're repatriated on 4 and 6 March 1991-they were released in two groups. And there would certainly be calls for war crimes trials of Iraqis-even if the trials have to be conducted in absentia. And the POWs were not well treated: beatings, torture, poor diet, nasty guards, etc., Intelligence sources would indicate some of the abuses, but the full details won't be known until the releases and the military services have a chance to debrief the returnees.

One thing that was expected after Melissa's capture: a video of her being shown on Iraqi TV. She was forced to make a video, but it never aired for some reason. The Iraqis might decide to put her (and any other female POWs) in relatively benign conditions-for a day or two, anyway-and shoot a video showing "Look how crazy the Americans are to have women as combat pilots and soldiers, but we Iraqis will treat them well." Such a video was expected-from news sources at the time of Melissa's capture .

 

[SergeantHeretic]

You'd have to have a more effective Iraqi Air Defense System in the first few days of the war to have more shootdowns: there were 21 total POWs in 1991, and except for Melissa and her male codriver, all were aircrew. Having 4 or 5 additional POWs be women is a possiblity. But the exact nature of their (mis)treatment wouldn't be known until they're repatriated on 4 and 6 March 1991-they were released in two groups. And there would certainly be calls for war crimes trials of Iraqis-even if the trials have to be conducted in absentia. And the POWs were not well treated: beatings, torture, poor diet, nasty guards, etc., Intelligence sources would indicate some of the abuses, but the full details won't be known until the releases and the military services have a chance to debrief the returnees.

One thing that was expected after Melissa's capture: a video of her being shown on Iraqi TV. She was forced to make a video, but it never aired for some reason. The Iraqis might decide to put her (and any other female POWs) in relatively benign conditions-for a day or two, anyway-and shoot a video showing "Look how crazy the Americans are to have women as combat pilots and soldiers, but we Iraqis will treat them well." Such a video was expected-from news sources at the time of Melissa's capture .

Those are fair points, sorry, I overestimated the Iraqi air defense net.

I think they might get more female infantry esp in engagements like Khafji and so forth. not many more, but a few.

They may treat the women decently, at least at first, and a video is certainly not out of the question. They might even show it this time.

 

[AdA]

spokewoman

Russian Flying ace Lily Litvak, instead of dying in action in her Yak 1, lives on to score 48 confirmed individual kills flying Yak 1, 9 and later Yak 3 fighters. At one time she is temporaly posted to the Normandie Niemen (to help conversion to the Yak 3) fighter Regiment, and french pilots help spread her fame in the west. When Nikita Kruchev visits the US Lily is flying the secretery General Tu116 VIP plane. She attends a reception at the white house in full uniform with two HSU stars. Time and Life print cover stories about her life, and the "why not here" debate heats up. JFK promisses to open the AF combat units to women in a controversial speach...
The rest follows.