American Victory in Quebec

How could the Americans win at the Battle of Quebec in 1775? If it's possible, what would probably happen next if the war went pretty much the same way?
Would they give Quebec back as there was little support from the colonists?
 
Assuming that the Americans can keep it until the end of the war, Quebec is most useful as a bargaining chip for some other concession from the British Empire. If the Americans keep it the Quebecois are probably going to secede as quickly as possible, to either rejoin France or go it alone. So the Americans either have a border with a failing former ally or they have a legal precedent for secession.
 

Teejay

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Assuming that the Americans can keep it until the end of the war, Quebec is most useful as a bargaining chip for some other concession from the British Empire. If the Americans keep it the Quebecois are probably going to secede as quickly as possible, to either rejoin France or go it alone. So the Americans either have a border with a failing former ally or they have a legal precedent for secession.

Either Quebec or Canada becomes the 14th original state in the United States of America or decides to become an independent nation. A Kingdom of Canada under the Bourbons allied with the United States could be a possibly, especially if Louis XVI after his overthrow decides to escape to Canada.
 
Either Quebec or Canada becomes the 14th original state in the United States of America or decides to become an independent nation. A Kingdom of Canada under the Bourbons allied with the United States could be a possibly, especially if Louis XVI after his overthrow decides to escape to Canada.

They couldn't even escape to Belgium. How are they supposed to get to Canada in the first place if they're stopped at port or along the road?
 

raharris1973

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If Quebec opts not to join the Articles of Confederation and merely allies with the 13, or if she secedes or refuses to ratify the Constitution, what borders could she uphold?
 
If Quebec opts not to join the Articles of Confederation and merely allies with the 13, or if she secedes or refuses to ratify the Constitution, what borders could she uphold?

Do we need a constitution like OTL's if there is no British threat in Canada or the west?
 
Assuming that the Americans can keep it until the end of the war, Quebec is most useful as a bargaining chip for some other concession from the British Empire. If the Americans keep it the Quebecois are probably going to secede as quickly as possible, to either rejoin France or go it alone. So the Americans either have a border with a failing former ally or they have a legal precedent for secession.

could try and trade it for New Brunswick (per another thread) or Florida
 

firepelt123

Banned
If Quebec opts not to join the Articles of Confederation and merely allies with the 13, or if she secedes or refuses to ratify the Constitution, what borders could she uphold?
Likely much of Canada at the time, although the US might take territory along the Great Lakes.
 

firepelt123

Banned
Why don't the British troops enroute to Quebec retake it?
Most likely scenario, as soon as the Ice melt the Royal Navy sails up, bombards the fortress, and lands at least enough troops to keep the Americans busy and gets reinforcements or besieges the city. Max Rebel strength is probably 3,000 and that is quite a stretch. More like 2,000 to 2,500.
 
Likely much of Canada at the time, although the US might take territory along the Great Lakes.

I see little point in trying to sustain most of West Canada without Quebec, except if they later go straight to Oregon.

Still, I think it's hard the British would just let all of North America go away at once.
Also, if the Americans insist in keeping Canada, wouldn't loyalists be a constant pain in the ass for decades to come? Probably large revolts and maybe grant a long lasting claim in America for the UK?
 
Most likely scenario, as soon as the Ice melt the Royal Navy sails up, bombards the fortress, and lands at least enough troops to keep the Americans busy and gets reinforcements or besieges the city. Max Rebel strength is probably 3,000 and that is quite a stretch. More like 2,000 to 2,500.

And given the growing discontent of the occupied Habitants with their "liberators", Quebec is increasingly hostile to the Americans. Likeley Burgoyne rapidly secures Montreal and the rest of Quebec while the main american force is pinned and eventually surrenders. So with Arnold et al in the bag, and the bulk of 1777 taken up with the retaking of Quebec, Saratoga is butterflied. How does that effect the remainder of the war. Delayed or no French intervention?
 
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Most likely scenario, as soon as the Ice melt the Royal Navy sails up, bombards the fortress, and lands at least enough troops to keep the Americans busy and gets reinforcements or besieges the city. Max Rebel strength is probably 3,000 and that is quite a stretch. More like 2,000 to 2,500.
Where it could matter is in horrifying London into concessions. They've lost damn near the entire continent! But that's not much worse than OTL....

Presumably a prolonged American occupation and British liberation would have effects on French Quebecois nationalism.
 

firepelt123

Banned
And given the growing discontent of the occupied Habitants with their "liberators", Quebec is increasingly hostile the the Americans. Likley Burgoyne rapidly secures Montreal and the rest of Quebec while the main american force is pinned and eventually surrenders. So with Arnold et al in the bag, and the bulk of 1777 taken up with the retaking of Quebec, Saratoga is butterflied. How does that effect the remainder of the war. Delayed or no French intervention?
I would say delayed. The French were anxious to get revenge for the 7 years war and had built up for such an event. However, they could join when the US was in it's death thrones for losing Arnold.
 

raharris1973

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Likely much of Canada at the time, although the US might take territory along the Great Lakes.

What do you mean by that. All of what became upper and lower Canada in OTL 1780s? Plus or minus New Brunswick?
6-map.png
 
Whatever else, the 1763 Quebec border province is not natural borders at all, while Lower Canada's boundaries ARE barring Labrador/the Goose Bay watershed, because Lower Canada takes in all land not in Upper Canada OR Rupert's Land/the Hudson Bay watershed.

It's literal common sense to give away Lower Canada sans Labrador if Quebec Province is lost.
 
TERRITORIAL EXTENTS
Or did you mean Quebec would be held down to its 1763-1773 size, the red in the map below:
View attachment 361985
The core territory would be the red, north of the St. Lawrence extended up to the River Romaine. I think Quebec can make a fair claim to Anticosti Island.
The south bank of the St. Lawrence is contestable between Quebec, Nova Scotia (New Brunswick), and the United States (New England and New York). Now-a-days it is very Quebecois, but in the 1800s it was very English (UEL).

What do you mean by that. All of what became upper and lower Canada in OTL 1780s? Plus or minus New Brunswick?
View attachment 361984
Quebec has a good claim to Upper Canada. But the United States might protest and want joint administration like the Oregon Territory later. Likewise New Foundland with respect to Labrador. Quebec can make a fair claim on Lower Canada north of the St. Lawrence River.

If Canada enters into the United States I expect the state borders will initially resemble the core territory, and the remainder will be ceded as territory under the administration of Congress. I think there will be border changes to Canada, and Montreal might even part ways with Quebec City.
 
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