American South Ontario

During the negotiations at the end of the American War of Independence there was consideration for the idea of the United States and British Canada setting a boundary at the Nippising Line (Ottawa River and Nippising Lakes).

What if the United States had gotten Southern Ontario?

Many of the loyalists who settled there likely would settle in Lower Canada (Quebec), Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick here. Lower Canada would have a large Anglo minority.

Britain wouldn't be as able to have forts in the Old Northwest or support Native allies in the region.

There would be at least one more free state here.

Would a unified British North America be possible without Southern Ontario, or would we see multiple British dominions?
 
I'm not sure the Nipissing line is actually the Ottawa River. But more a straight line from the Border of NY at The St. Lawrence to the lake. Far different and always portrayed that way on most maps.
 
This was also never a serious possibility. The initial negotiator, while instructed that they could offer that was also instructed to get better. Even the French border if possible. There was such an uproar and dissent among the British Tories that the treaty would never have passed. By then the dissension within the allied ranks was known to the British. Hence why the negotiators came back with even a harder position to attempt to decouple the Americans from their European allies. Proclamation line border, Quebec border as per the Quebec Act. Territory south of the Ohio a protectorate for the civilized tribes under British, more likely Anglo-Spanish, protection and the NS border in the NEat Castine and that river (cannot for the life of me remember the name, crap). That's just unlikely that event was. The Americans blinked and reduced the request a little which proved enough. Personally they could probably have pushed harder in my opinion, but I wasn't there and having the colonies remain in the economic orbit of Britain without any of the costs to sustain it was a prime motivator and it ensures the Americans could be persuaded of the advantages in a separate peace. Imagine if the British had struck a separate peace with Spain and France instead,. Quite possible IF Gibraltar had fallen, but it didn't
 
However, should this occur, then access would still be possible via the Ottawa River to the upper lakes and the far NW at least. Only 10000 of the loyalists settled initially in Quebec, largely in S Ontario. You would have more in the Eastern townships, maritime and the extreme east of Ontario and the Ottawa valley. Life would have been considerably harder but they would have survived. Quebec would definitely have been a more mixed society.
 
Proclamation line border, Quebec border as per the Quebec Act. Territory south of the Ohio a protectorate for the civilized tribes under British, more likely Anglo-Spanish, protection and the NS border in the NEat Castine and that river (cannot for the life of me remember the name, crap).

Do you have any links for this negotiation? Seems like it could make for a good timeline. Also pretty sure it's the Penobscot River
 
Difficult but still possible to maintain a presence in the NW if needed at Makinaw, Lernault, Maumee and Edward Augustus on Green Bay if needed. As long as provision is made for Winter supplies. Niagara, Oswego are out. Oswegatchie and the head of Lake Champlain are also still possible.
 
Do you have any links for this negotiation? Seems like it could make for a good timeline. Also pretty sure it's the Penobscot River
I saw it in an online book on jstor I think, regarding the course of negotiations. Spain and France were both opposed to the native territories going to the new state. Spain for obvious reasons. The French of course didn't want Spain to come out ahead of them and believed the Americans really had no legal claims beyond the proclamation line and made sure the British knew it. Gibraltar which had to this point been successfully defended, the Spanish were unwilling to make peace untill they could get it and would have traded everything just to get it. The British of course after so much effort and expense of course we're never giving it up.
 
Well, for one, it gives the early USA a much more natural Nothern border.

The Great Lakes are an American mediteranean.

This of course, kills Canada in the cradle, at least as we know it. What would be American Ontario has half the Canadian population.

We likely see several small Dominions - Quebec, which will likely be much more Anglo with the loyalists, Newfoundland and the Martimes.

Without Ontario, Western Canada is in an odd place. The Americans doubtlessly would get everything West of the Rockies. Would the brits bother retaining Hudson Bay and the Praries, or would they sell to the Americans?

Canada would no longer be the destination of choice for Brits looking to settle overseas - aometbinf that has implications everywhere from Africa to Oceania.
 
Instead of being centered on the Canada's, there will likely be a British Dominion centered around the Maritimes. Expect Newfoundland and PEI to be original provinces as well as Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.

Quebec might just remain a separate British Dominion and later join the Maritime Dominion
 
Well, for one, it gives the early USA a much more natural Nothern border.

The Great Lakes are an American mediteranean.

This of course, kills Canada in the cradle, at least as we know it. What would be American Ontario has half the Canadian population.

We likely see several small Dominions - Quebec, which will likely be much more Anglo with the loyalists, Newfoundland and the Martimes.

Without Ontario, Western Canada is in an odd place. The Americans doubtlessly would get everything West of the Rockies. Would the brits bother retaining Hudson Bay and the Praries, or would they sell to the Americans?
Canada would no longer be the destination of choice for Brits looking to settle overseas - aometbinf that ha sthence to the Mississippi ss implications here from Africa to Oceania.

The natural border IS through the lakes. Expect the Brits to push more forcefully in those areas of the border that were considered only vaguely defined in the far NW and the NE. The border could well be at the lakehead and the St. Louis river instead of the Pigeon.
 
Actually not JSTOR, Google books. "The Nation's Nature" and "Seizing Destiny". Both have substantial chapters devoted to the competing machinations leading to the Treaty of Paris.
 
It would be an interesting border, a tacit admission by the British they are more concerned with the Atlantic coast and the Pacific vs. the Interior. That does however, leave Rupert's Land an open question. The British might establish a bigger presence on the Pacific side, or at least push for boundaries further south if the HBC gets more support with the loss of everything west of Quebec.

I'm not as well read on this issue, but @AuroraBorealis seems to have the ideas down.
 
One , Red River was initially settled from the bay. You would probably have more settled there earlier in this instance such that more of the valley is insisted on down the road. While difficult the connection between the St Lawrence and the lakehead is still possible by the more arduous northern route to the lakehead at Duluth. Montreal and Duluth/Winnipeg would bookend this strategic commercial route between Atlantic and the interior. The Soo and a presence on Georgian Bay will be more prominent
 
It would be an interesting border, a tacit admission by the British they are more concerned with the Atlantic coast and the Pacific vs. the Interior. That does however, leave Rupert's Land an open question. The British might establish a bigger presence on the Pacific side, or at least push for boundaries further south if the HBC gets more support with the loss of everything west of Quebec.

Wasn't the HBC the one that actually prevented the majority of the settlement in the Oregon Country initially? It was only after American settlers arrived in greater numbers that the HBC finally relented and allowed settlement to occur, as said settlement would otherwise disturb the lucrative trapping industry along the Columbia River and its tributaries.

I'm not sure how this changes much of anything - it depends on how Canada shakes out, and if it remains a unitary colony at all. I've no doubt that the settlement along the Manitoba region will occur just as much as OTL, and that Rupert's Land will remain British in the interim. It really just remains to be seen whether Quebec accepts any of the Loyalists that leave after the war, and if further settlement by the British manages to Anglicize it enough, early enough, that it can united with the Maritimes (Quebec should dominate them in population, after all) or if the two sets will remain separate.
 
It really depends on what happens. Will there be an ability to settle the Loyalists--any more Loyalists than OTL--in this reduced province of Quebec, extending up the Ottawa?
 
How would the Brits ress greater claims to Oregon Country without a singular, stable British North America?

They didn't have one in the 1840s to be fair, and the HBC has to be considered as a factor. They might decide to "protect their investment" by calling on the crown to help with settlers/soldiers to hold the territory.

Wasn't the HBC the one that actually prevented the majority of the settlement in the Oregon Country initially? It was only after American settlers arrived in greater numbers that the HBC finally relented and allowed settlement to occur, as said settlement would otherwise disturb the lucrative trapping industry along the Columbia River and its tributaries.

It could, but consider Selkirk as the counter example. They might move more inland or into the Pacific, maybe even bite the bullet and bring in settlers depending on how the continent shapes up post 1783.
 
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