American penal bns during the Bulge

This thread should've been done back in Dec as a 60th anniversary tribute to the Battle of the Bulge, but anyways, after the initial German offensive in the Ardennes, there were actually proposals among Ike and SHAEF to remedy the chronic manpower shortage in ETO, by recruiting replacement bns from the ranks of military convicts. This plan nevr came to fruition due to the lack of enthusiasm among these prisoners to sign up, which resulted in the successful recruitment of 5000-odd black service troops as inf combat replacements who as all-black plts were attached to white coys during the Bulge fighting and gained a phenomenal reputation as fighting men and caused the majorority of white soldiers serving alongside these black guys to see them as equals and favour integration.

But WI the plan to utilise military convits had been more successful, so's that the US army committed convict bns as frontline shock troops in the same way the Red Army used its NKVD-driven punishment bns as human shields on the Eastern Front ? Would these guys have been more of a liability or an asset to Ike, Bradley Patton et al ? Could there actually have been real 'Dirty Dozen' type units in action ? What about the black soldiers- would they still have been allowed to fight, and if not how much further back would the OTL racial integration of the US armed forces been set ?
 
The Filthy Fourteenth

Something you might want to consider in discussing this is the 14th Army. This was one of two ficticious(sic) formations used in FORTITUDE SOUTH one of the D-Day deception operations.

As part of the ongoing psychological war it was claimed that the 14th Army was originally intended for the Pacific Theater and as a result was composed of "...gangsters and other bloodthirsty men, specially selected to fight against the Japanese, men who were not supposed to take prisoners, but, instead to administer a cruel justice with their own hands." (Fortitude:The D-Day Deception Campaign, Roger Hesketh, pg 291)

One can just imagine the effects of unleashing such a force on Europe, especially since this was not going to be simply a few battalions of prisoners but instead brigades.

If anyone is interested I'll post the 14ths Order of Battle.
 
Here you go:

14th Army (HQ: Little Waltham , Cmdr: General Lucas(1))

Thirty Third Corps (HQ: Bury St Edmonds)
11th (US) Infantry Div (Bury St Edmonds)
48th (US) Infantry Div (Woodbridge)
25th (US) Armoured Div (East Dereham)

Thirty Seventh Corps (HQ: Chelmsford)
17th (US) Infantry Div (Hatfield & Peverel) (2)
59th (US) Infantry Div (Ipswich) (2)


1. I'm not sure if this was the General Lucas who lead the Anzio landings.

2. Had the FORTITUDE SOUTH II landings actually occurred these divisions would have made the assault landings.

The source for this Order of Battle is Fortitude:The D-Day Deception Campaign, by Roger Hesketh. The book contains an official report on the operation written just after WWII and so can be considered definative. The order of battle can be found on page 244.
 
This is an additional post to the one above, I have yet to confirm that the 'General Lucas' chosen to lead the 14th Army was in fact General J P Lucas commander of VI Corps at Anzio.

However if it was indeed this officer it does raise some interesting possibilities, following Anzio General Lucas was regarded as overcautious by both his Allied colleagues and the Germans.

Firstly and most obviously Lucas may act more boldly or even recklessly in an attempt to 'clear his name', with possibly drastic consequences, especially given the nature of the divisions under his command (see my earlier post)

Secondly, he may continue the apparently overcautious style of command noted at Anzio, though this is less likely as he would be under pressure from above (General DeWitt, Commander FUSAG & the officer who interned the Japanese.) and from the commander of the 4th (British) Army to conform with their plans/movements.

I'd also like to make a slight correction, in an earlier post on this thread I referred to US divisions containing 'Brigades' at this point in history US divisions were composed of Regiments & Battalions.

As with my earlier posts I leave it open to the floor to continue...
 
Graham said:
However if it was indeed this officer it does raise some interesting possibilities, following Anzio General Lucas was regarded as overcautious by both his Allied colleagues and the Germans.

Firstly and most obviously Lucas may act more boldly or even recklessly in an attempt to 'clear his name', with possibly drastic consequences, especially given the nature of the divisions under his command (see my earlier post)

Secondly, he may continue the apparently overcautious style of command noted at Anzio, though this is less likely as he would be under pressure from above (General DeWitt, Commander FUSAG & the officer who interned the Japanese.) and from the commander of the 4th (British) Army to conform with their plans/movements.
QUOTE]

I'm familiar with Lucas from a TL I wrote covering the VI Corps advance from Salerno to Cassino.

Lucas was a 'yellow leg' artilleryman following early postings with the 'red leg' cavalry. His artillery background gives him a natural tendency to have a base of fire mentality with his tactics. During his time shepherding the mainly National Guard divisions up the Italian peninsula this tendency was a strength as the lavish artillery resources available to him were rarely unable to direct effective fire for front line units. The unique problems afforded by mountains and rivers dominated his fire and movement and he took this attitude with him to Anzio.

With regards to the POD, there are some considerable problems facing the fielding of penal battalions on the Allied side during this time. Assuming that they are overcome, then a Lucas may in fact be the better general to lead his troublesome charges. Losing control over the formation is a greater risk than a hidebound, tactically conservative outlook.

Croesus.
 
With regards to the POD, there are some considerable problems facing the fielding of penal battalions on the Allied side during this time. Assuming that they are overcome, then a Lucas may in fact be the better general to lead his troublesome charges. Losing control over the formation is a greater risk than a hidebound, tactically conservative outlook.

Croesus.

I know that it's been several years since this was last looked at but after rediscovering the thread, I thought it might be interesting to revive the discussion, to cover just what problems there were with forming penal units on the Allied side.

As an initial contribution I'm going to provide a listing of the initial assault forces for FORTITUDE SOUTH:

Target Beaches, between River Somme(Exclusive) & Boulogne (Inclusive).

Right: 35th British Armored Brigade, 55th British Inf Div(1) / 2nd British Airborne Div(3)

Centre: 59th US Inf Div(2) / 9th US Airborne Div(3)

Left: 17th US Inf Div(2) / 21st US Airborne Div(3)

Follow up divisions:

Right: 58th British Inf Div(1)

Left: 25th US Armored Div(4)

Notes:

1. Part of 2nd Corps, 4th Army (British)

2. XXXVIIth Corps, 14th Army (US)

3. Formations under direct command of HQ, 1st US Army Group (FUSAG)

4. Part of XXXIIIrd Corps, 14th Army (US)

Source: 'Fortitude: The D-Day Deception' by Roger Hesketh, Pg 418
 
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Something you might want to consider in discussing this is the 14th Army. This was one of two ficticious(sic) formations used in FORTITUDE SOUTH one of the D-Day deception operations.
Uhh, you do realize 14h Army was a figment of SHAEF's imagination, don't you?:eek: It was a paper organization, no more.
 
Graham said:
Something you might want to consider in discussing this is the 14th Army. This was one of two ficticious(sic) formations used in FORTITUDE SOUTH one of the D-Day deception operations.

Uhh, you do realize 14h Army was a figment of SHAEF's imagination, don't you?:eek: It was a paper organization, no more.

That is indeed what fictitious means, isn't it?

The comment that "one can just imagine the" should further indicate he knows it was imaginary. ;)
 
That is indeed what fictitious means, isn't it?

The comment that "one can just imagine the" should further indicate he knows it was imaginary. ;)

Indeed I did:)

Getting this back on topic, if anyone is interested I'll post the Orbat of the fictional British 4th Army which was intended to accompany the fictional US 14th Army in it's attack on Pas de Calais.

Unlike the 14th the 4th Army was a conventional formation (originally raised for Fortitude North, the imaginary invasion of Normandy.)
 
Another little bump, this time to announce that as soon as I've located my copy of 'Fortitude: The D-Day Deception'. I'll post the Fortitude South version of the Fourth (British) army.
 
Finally located the book. As promised earlier, here is the order of battle for the fictitious British Fourth Army from operation Fortitude South. If anyone is interested, I'll have a full listing for FUSAG ready in a couple of days.

4th British Army (HQ: Heathfield, Sussex, Cmdr General Morgan)

2nd British Corps (HQ: Tunbridge Wells)
35th British Armored Brigade (HQ: Maresfield *)
55th British Infantry Division (HQ: Three Bridges *)
58th British Infantry Division (HQ: Gravesend)

7th British Corps (HQ: Folkestone)
5th British Armored Division (HQ: Newmarket)
61st British Infantry Division (HQ: Wye *)
80th British Infantry Division (HQ: Canterbury)

*. Denotes a real formation.
 
After a spring clean I've managed to find the book with the FUSAG Orbat in it and as promised some time ago here it is.


1st US Army Group (FUSAG), HQ: Wentworth

2nd Airborne Division (British)
9th Airborne Division (US)
21st Airborne Division (US)

9th Army (US) *

4th Army (British)
2nd Corps (British)
7th Corps (British)

14th Army (US)
33rd Corps (US)
37th Corps (US)

The 9th Army is of course the real unit that later went to Normandy. The three airborne divisions were directly under the control of FUSAG HQ, the subordinate units for the 14th and 4th armies are as per my earlier posts in this thread.
 
I am posting an update of the FUSAG Orbat I posted last year because I recently obtained a copy of 'The Deceivers: Allied Military Deception in the Second World War' by Thaddeus Holt which included in it the insignia for the fictional units that made up the 1st US Army group during FORTITUDE SOUTH.

The insignia are as they appear in the book in their heraldic description to save bandwidth (Though if anyone wants to try and create graphics feel free). Only the fictional insignia are presented.

1st US Army Group (FUSAG), (HQ: Wentworth, Symbol: A black roman numeral 'I' on a blue pentagon with a double border, white inside red.)

2nd Airborne Division (British, Symbol: Standard British Airborne Division insignia)
9th Airborne Division (US, Symbol: A circle of nine white clouds surrounding a blue field bearing a veritical yellow lightning flash)
21st Airborne Division (US Symbol: On a blue disk, a white cloud emitting a yellow lightning flash vertically, and above it another white cloud emitting two lightning flashes chevronwise.)

9th Army (US) *

4th British Army (HQ: Heathfield, Sussex, Cmdr General Morgan, Symbol: A rectangle divided into three horizontal stripes of red, black and red, with a design like the figure 8 in yellow, the bottom part of the lower circle being missing)

2nd British Corps (HQ: Tunbridge Wells, Symbol: A red leaping salmon upon three blue wavy bands against a white background all in an oblong red border.)
35th British Armored Brigade (HQ: Maresfield *)
55th British Infantry Division (HQ: Three Bridges *)
58th British Infantry Division (HQ: Gravesend, Symbol: A stags full face on a black square)

7th British Corps (HQ: Folkestone, Symbol: A scallop shell on a blue ground)
5th British Armored Division (HQ: Newmarket, Symbol: None adopted?)
61st British Infantry Division (HQ: Wye *)
80th British Infantry Division (HQ: Canterbury, Symbol: A red ocean liner steaming across a light blue sea, emitting light blue smoke from her funnel on a yellow background with light blue border)


14th Army (HQ: Little Waltham , Cmdr: General Lucas(1), Symbol: A white letter 'A' on a red acorn)

Thirty Third Corps (HQ: Bury St Edmonds, Symbol: A hexagonal amulet with it's parallel sides horizontal, with an arrowhead emanating from each corner, upon a disk divided vertically blue and white, with the colors countercharged.)
11th (US) Infantry Div (Bury St Edmonds, Symbol: A disk segmented into twelve pieces alternating white and blue except for the twelth which is black.)
48th (US) Infantry Div (Woodbridge, Symbol: A four pointed star, point up, divided into eight portions alternately white and red)
25th (US) Armoured Div (East Dereham, Symbol: The number '25' on the standard armoured divisional insignia)

Thirty Seventh Corps (HQ: Chelmsford, Symbol: None adopted?)
17th (US) Infantry Div (Hatfield & Peverel, Symbol: A white saltaire on a septfoil. The top and bottom portions blue, the left and right portions red.)
59th (US) Infantry Div (Ipswich, Symbol: A white rattlesnake coiled to strike on a blue disk with the ground under the rattlesnake yellow)

*. Designates a real formation.
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
Given the German units in their landing area, I would expect them to have a harder time on D-day than OTL. Although the logistic tail across the water will be shorter and air cover and CAS improved.
 
Given the German units in their landing area, I would expect them to have a harder time on D-day than OTL. Although the logistic tail across the water will be shorter and air cover and CAS improved.

True, the assault units might suffer higher casualties, but the Germans would then have to deal with (at least in the American Sectors):

...convicts who were released from prisons in the United States to be enrolled in a foreign legion of the French or Spanish type. It can almost be said that there are brigades composed of gangsters and bloodthirsty men, specially selected to fight against the Japanese, men who are not supposed to take prisoners, but instead to administer a cruel justice at their own hands."
(Note: I quoted part of this earlier in the thread)

Roger Hesketh. Fortitude: The D-Day Deception Campaign. St Ermins Press. 1999
 
Apologies for the long gaps between replies.

But while re-reading the Hesketh report on Fortitude I stumbled across a footnote describing the 5th British Armored Division's insignia as a 'blue lobster' no other details.

Also from the point of view of simulating the Fortitude invasion, has anyone been able to figure/find out just which beaches between the River Somme & Boulogne?
 
The concept of the penal battalion really goes against Allied doctrine of the time. The use of such in the Red Army was proposed in the 1920s and 1930s as part of "Shock Armies" which would break through enemy lines at all cosst. Much of that can be traced back to Svechin's support of a massive attritional war in which Soviet manpower would be used to wear down technologically superior enemies. In America such a concept went against the culture of the time and would take decades to be integrated as a military concept. The penal battalion was very much a facet of the totalitarianism of the Soviet Union and in fact Nazi Germany as well, which maintained similar units on a smaller scale.
 
The concept of the penal battalion really goes against Allied doctrine of the time. The use of such in the Red Army was proposed in the 1920s and 1930s as part of "Shock Armies" which would break through enemy lines at all cosst. Much of that can be traced back to Svechin's support of a massive attritional war in which Soviet manpower would be used to wear down technologically superior enemies. In America such a concept went against the culture of the time and would take decades to be integrated as a military concept. The penal battalion was very much a facet of the totalitarianism of the Soviet Union and in fact Nazi Germany as well, which maintained similar units on a smaller scale.

I'll agree with you there. Even the WWII concept (See the 'Garbo' quote in the earlier posts) seems to have been along the lines of conventional units (eg not suicide squads), but formed from every kind of hardcase they could get their hands on (Hopefully not people like Eddie Leonski (Wikipedia).
 
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