American-Nazi Cold War Help

Xen

Banned
Okay here is something I am working on, but I need help with

Here is the way I am seeing the world in 1954, like OTL there are two superpowers involved in a Cold War, each trying to outdo the other. I am uncertain as to how to come up with this scenario in a realistic manner. I actually have a story based around the progress of the world in this ATL as seen through the eyes of baseball's titans.

The Berlin Pact:
Nazi Germany
Fascist Italy
Hungary
Romania
Bulgaria
National Socialist Republic of Greece
Turkish Nationalist Republic
Finland
Denmark
Croatia
Serbia & Montenegro

The Northern Alliance:
United States
United Kingdom
Republic of Russia
France
Republic of Spain
Kingdom of Portugal
Canada
Belgium
Netherlands
Luxembourg
Norway
Kingdom of Greece
Republic of Turkey
Kingdom of Iceland (includes Greenland){Free Denmark}

A brief synopsis:
Russian-German DMZ: The longest fortified border in the world, and the most deadly. The Russian-German border is much like the DMZ between North Korea and South Korea in OTL. The United States and Russia each have troops stationed at the border.

Holocaust: After the war, Germany turned its full focus on dealing with the Final Solution. Nearly all the Jewish population in German occupied Europe has been systematically murdered. Without the Jewish people to blame, Germany has began pointing fingers at the Slavs, homosexuals, socialists and liberals for all of the Reich's short commings. The United States and Russia both receive more than their fair share of the blame as well.

Chinese Civil War: The United States and Great Britain turned its full focus onto Japan. Led by Douglas MacArthur American and British troops invaded Korea and Manchuria. With Japanese weapons now in the hands of the United States, the Communists were denied a crucial part of their war effort against the Kuomintang. After Mao's death in 1951 the Communists began to unravel, although they continue to make trouble for the Nationalists in the country side.

Decolonialization: Like OTL the European colonial powers of Belgium, France and the UK have began letting their old Empire's go. More concerned with the immediate threat on its border, France allowed Indochina to go in 1950. India and Pakistan declared independence from the UK in 1948, and Palestine declared independence in 1954.

Space Race: The United States working conjunction with the United Kingdom and Russian Republic has developed a space program based in Houston, Texas. The German's have a slightly more advanced space program, but saw its attempt to put a satellite in orbit fail when the rocket exploded shortly after take-off.

Olympics: Germany (and its allies) have not competed in the Olympic Games since 1936, though there is a real possibility of the Germans fielding an Olympic team for the London Games in 1956. Due to the prolonged war, the 1948 games were cancelled, and the 1952 games were held in Stockholm.

Constantinople: To further bolster his claims of creating a new Roman Empire, Benito Mussolini has opened the capital of the Eastern Empire up for Italian Colonization. Turks, Armenians, Jews and Greeks alike have been given their eviction notice and and/or restricted to certain quarters of the city. The Patriarch of Constantinople has been given the same accords afforded to the Pope with the Holy See (except the Patriach is in control of the Fener). Ancient churches such as the Hagia Sophia and Hagia Eirene have been restored to their Christian roots, serving as Catholic Cathedrals for the Italian colonists.

Nuclear Nations: The United States became the first nation to be armed with nuclear warheads in 1945. Germany followed suit by testing a nuclear {Less powerful than those of the US} in Poland in 1948, ending the US monopoly on nuclear weapons. A joint Spanish-British-French effort successfully detonated a nuclear bomb in the South Pacific in 1950, the Russian Republic using spies from France and Britain are believed to be near developing their own nuclear device. Italy and China are both believed to be in the process of developing a nuclear program. {It remains to be seen if Germany will help or hamper Italy in the process}

Countries:
Nazi Germany: German people enjoy a life with a very high standard of living, relying on the back breaking labor of Slavic Slavery. German industries enjoys a monopoly on Central and Eastern European markets producing everything from automobiles, radios and televisions to tanks, jet aircraft and small arms. German colonists in Poland and the Ukraine provide the Reich with plenty of food, while Latin America provides more exotic substances such as spices, and fruits as well as the more mundane sugar and rubber. Germany has strengthened its relations with the oil rich Middle East, in particularly Saudi Arabia.

United States: Is very similiar to the USA of OTL in the 1950's {The Red Scare does not happen, nor does McCarthyism} the country is unraveling as blacks in the American south are beginning to demand equality under the law. The Republican Party dominates politics in Washington controlling both houses and the White House. A slight difference between OTL and the ATL, Franklin Roosevelt was re-elected in 1944 with Alben Barkley as his runnign mate, Barkley then goes on to serve as President after FDR's death in 1945. The Barkley-Dever ticket is defeated in 1948 by Thomas Dewey and running mate Everett Dirksen, Dewey would win re-election in 1952 against Adlai Stevenson and Averill Harriman.

Other Areas of Note:
King of Britain - George VI {on his death bed, not much longer to live}
Prime Minister of the UK - Anthony Eden
President of France - Charles de Gaulle
President of Russia - Georgy Zhukov
Duce of Italy - Benito Mussolini
Fuhrer of Germany - Adolph Hitler
President of Korea - Rhee Syngman
King of Portugal - Duarte I

Rock and Roll is in its infancy in the United States, little to no following
Jackie Robinson breaks baseball's color barrier with the Brooklyn Dodgers (1947)
US Air Force created in 1949 from US Army Air Corps
US Armed Forces desegregated in 1950
De-Stalinization occurs in Russia (1948-1952), Stalingrad renamed Martyrsgrad by Zhukov
New York City is the fastest growing and largest city in the world, thanks to immigrants from occupied Europe (most notably Poland, Ukraine and Jews)
Fidel Castro has become an All-Star pitcher for the Philadelphia Athletics
Dwight Eisenhower retires to Harpers Ferry, WV after the war, haunted by the deaths in the invasion of Europe.

This is just scratching the surface, but I am stumped as to get a stalemate in the East, and a successful American-British invasion in France & Spain at the same time.
 
The way I'd do that is
1. Near simultaneous production of nukes by Germany and USA/UK.
2. There's nearly a nuclear war (maybe the West demonstrate their nuke and the Germans demonstrate theirs straight back, giving everyone pause for thought).
3. Then a peace treaty/ceasefire that frees France etc. but just freezes the borders in Russia.

Best I can do I'm afraid.

Where is the German/Russian border? What happened to the Eastern European countries?
 

Thande

Donor
You could get to this by a similar means to Turtledove's interesting "Ready for the Fatherland" scenario. In this, Manstein assassinates Hitler on the front line after being ticked off a little too much in 1943, seizes power in a military regime, and by allowing German forces to withdraw to more reinforced positions, manages to hurt the Russians enough to force a status quo ante bellum peace in 1944. He then turns around and throws the whole Wehrmacht at the Allies, smashing D-Day on the beaches and forcing them out of continental Italy. The war ends with a stalemate peace, the Nazis holding most of Europe but with British-allied regimes in Sicily and similar regions.
 
You could get to this by a similar means to Turtledove's interesting "Ready for the Fatherland" scenario. In this, Manstein assassinates Hitler on the front line after being ticked off a little too much in 1943, seizes power in a military regime, and by allowing German forces to withdraw to more reinforced positions, manages to hurt the Russians enough to force a status quo ante bellum peace in 1944. He then turns around and throws the whole Wehrmacht at the Allies, smashing D-Day on the beaches and forcing them out of continental Italy. The war ends with a stalemate peace, the Nazis holding most of Europe but with British-allied regimes in Sicily and similar regions.

Except he wants France, the low countries, Norway unoccupied and Greece and Turkey split.

I'm a bit unclear, is the PoD supposed to be during OTL WW2 or earlier?

Things like Republic of Spain suggest earlier.
 

Xen

Banned
Except he wants France, the low countries, Norway unoccupied and Greece and Turkey split.

I'm a bit unclear, is the PoD supposed to be during OTL WW2 or earlier?

Things like Republic of Spain suggest earlier.

I was thinking of a more fortified Europe, especially Germany and Italy. Instead of invading Italy (or Algeria), the western allies launch a daring invasion of Iberia in Operation Hammerhead. Perhaps the Soviets are in more dire need of aid, and FDR decides Iberia is the soft underbelly of Nazi Europe and can be taken quickly before German troops can arrive to reinforce Spain.

Taking Spain is a good strategy for the west, it takes pressure off of Russia, like Britain it is unsinkable Aircraft carrier with access to France, it opens and guarantees access to the Mediterranean and it would be a great morale booster if the allies emerge victorious. There is also significant resistance to the Franco regime that would be more than happy to welcome the Allies. That said, I was thinking of having Germany turn Spain into a meat grinder before allowing the allies to have it, knowing it would be too difficult to pry it from the west while still involved in against the Soviets.

As for Norway and unoccupied Greece those are campaigns later in the war the allies emerge victorious from. With allied Naval and Air Superiority, Norway could be a difficult but not overwhelming victory. Unoccupied Greece is mostly the Aegean Islands and the Peloponnese Peninsula which was wrestled with great difficulty and high loss of life from Germany. The rest of Greece becomes an Italian/German Puppet.

I'm not sure how to get Turkey involved, unless Hitler tries to get to Iraq/Soviet Caucasus through Anatolia and decides Turkey is in the way.
 
It certainly looks very interesting !

I'll try and think of something more useful to say...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I was thinking of a more fortified Europe, especially Germany and Italy. Instead of invading Italy (or Algeria), the western allies launch a daring invasion of Iberia in Operation Hammerhead. Perhaps the Soviets are in more dire need of aid, and FDR decides Iberia is the soft underbelly of Nazi Europe and can be taken quickly before German troops can arrive to reinforce Spain.

Taking Spain is a good strategy for the west, it takes pressure off of Russia, like Britain it is unsinkable Aircraft carrier with access to France, it opens and guarantees access to the Mediterranean and it would be a great morale booster if the allies emerge victorious. There is also significant resistance to the Franco regime that would be more than happy to welcome the Allies. That said, I was thinking of having Germany turn Spain into a meat grinder before allowing the allies to have it, knowing it would be too difficult to pry it from the west while still involved in against the Soviets.

As for Norway and unoccupied Greece those are campaigns later in the war the allies emerge victorious from. With allied Naval and Air Superiority, Norway could be a difficult but not overwhelming victory. Unoccupied Greece is mostly the Aegean Islands and the Peloponnese Peninsula which was wrestled with great difficulty and high loss of life from Germany. The rest of Greece becomes an Italian/German Puppet.

I'm not sure how to get Turkey involved, unless Hitler tries to get to Iraq/Soviet Caucasus through Anatolia and decides Turkey is in the way.
A couple of thoughts :

  • Why did Spain join the Axis instead of being neutral?
  • If Spain was neutral, can the allies really invade (I know they did in Persia but that wasn't in Europe).
  • The Allies already have an unsinkable aircraft carrier, they don't need another.
  • American thinking on the second front was it had to be France because the short distance to Germany meant the Germans had to throw everything they had in and so victory meant the end of the war (British peripheral strategy was more like yours). Spain is a bit like Italy, not critical to the Germans and so they can trade it away for heavy allied casualties and still end up with close to impassable mountains before the Allies.
  • The Mediterranean was open anyway thanks to British control of Gibraltar, Malta and N.Africa/Suez.
  • Without Norway the German imports of iron ore are imperilled. Without iron ore no steel, without steel, no war.
 
A couple of thoughts :


[*]Without Norway the German imports of iron ore are imperilled. Without iron ore no steel, without steel, no war.

That was true in 1940, but was it still true after they controlled most of Europe? I don't know; I was just wondering. I mean, one assumes that everyone else gets their steel from somewhere else !

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Xen

Banned
A couple of thoughts :

  • Why did Spain join the Axis instead of being neutral?
  • If Spain was neutral, can the allies really invade (I know they did in Persia but that wasn't in Europe).
  • The Allies already have an unsinkable aircraft carrier, they don't need another.
  • American thinking on the second front was it had to be France because the short distance to Germany meant the Germans had to throw everything they had in and so victory meant the end of the war (British peripheral strategy was more like yours). Spain is a bit like Italy, not critical to the Germans and so they can trade it away for heavy allied casualties and still end up with close to impassable mountains before the Allies.
  • The Mediterranean was open anyway thanks to British control of Gibraltar, Malta and N.Africa/Suez.
  • Without Norway the German imports of iron ore are imperilled. Without iron ore no steel, without steel, no war.


Okay, good points. How about this, rather than Spain being the meat grinder for the US/Germany in WWII it is France.

Spain develops as OTL until the late 1940s when Francisco Franco is shot and killed, which eventually leads Spain to a Second Civil War with Germany and Italy supporting the Nationalists and the US and UK supporting the Republicans. A coup d'etat is possible too, I just want Spain out of the Fascist camp and in the Western/Northern one for the TL. It would be much more difficult for Spain to be ignored in the ATL with a hostile Nazi Germany and Fascisty Italy to the east and south of France, nobody wants a hostile Spain to the west.

As for the last point, Germany controls most of the Eastern, Central and Southern Europe, I don't think ore is going to be that much of a problem. Even if there are shortages during the war it could be a way to end the conflict, German steel shortages, coupled with the American Nuclear Bomb makes Germany want to end the conflict.

For the US/UK the gorey fighting in France coupled with the German Nuclear Bomb (as you suggested earlier) being detonated in Moscow. The war ends in a stand-off with...
 
March 1944
Allies take Sardinia & Corsica, Resistance is lite, and the Islands fall within 2 weeks, thru there will be scattered pockets in Sardinia for months.

April 1944
Allies invade Norway. With in a week they hold all north of Throndheim, Begin working their way south.

June 6
D-day postponed due to weather

June 21
Invasion of south France. German resistance is fierce, while the landing ;manage to occupy the coast, they make limited headway inland.

july
More and more of the Airpower on S&C that was planned for Italy is instead going to South France, The Troops in Italy are ordered to pull back and dig in.
Most of the Reinforcements/new units scheduled for Italy are going instead to south France.

D Day, The troops get ashore and manage to link up, but just like south France it is going to take weeks to move inland.

August
Deep in a underground facility in the Austrian Alps A team of German scientists achieves success in copying the Results reported in plans and reports stolen from America by German Spies.

Novembre
Liberation of Paris
Italy is a forgotten back water of the war, The Allies are very slowly grinding their way North.

Decembre
The Austrian Team reports to Hitler that sucess will be sometime in Septembre/Octobre 1945.

January
Allies liberate Belgium, Holland.

March
Allies reach the Rhine
Russians reach prewar border of Poland.

May
Allies enter Copenhagan

July 16 1945 of the Christian Era
01/01/01 of the Atomic Era

With the Allies in west Germany and the Russian approaching the 1940 German Border, a decision is made to use the Bomb to speed the end of the Pacific war.

August 8th 1945
Kyoto, Former capital of Japan is the first city in the world to Experience a double sunrise.

August 11 1945
Poor weather over Hiroshima, means the Enola Gay is diverted to Yokohama.

August 12
Russian begin Attack on Berlin

August 13
Leningrad Becomes number three on the Atomic Hit Parade.

August 14th
Swiss diplomats in London, Washington, and Moscow, deliver Notes from Germany, stating that Germany has more Bombs, and Guess the targets .

August 15th
A hasty cease fire in Germany

August 20th
Japan surrenders

August 22

August 26th
US planes begin transporting Nationalist Troops into Manchuria
First US troops arrive in Korea.

Negotiations begin in Geneva

Septembre 1 1945
Ho chi Mein [accompanied by half a division of Vietnamese troops] enters Hanoi riding on a captured Japanese Tank.
In front of the Government Palace, He Proclaims Free and Independent Vietnam.

In Indonesia Surhato is doing the Same.

Allied troops begin withdraw from Germany, Russians begin withdraw to the 1940 Border

Octobre
De Gualle requests US assistance to transport troops to Vietnam
Truman Involved in explaining the US withdraw from Germany, Italy and east Europe, and impressed by the OSS reports from Vietnam refuses.
Several days later he does the same to the Dutch.

1948
Civil war instigated by Italy breaks out in Turkey, Mussolini begins sending covert aid to both sides.

1949
Italian troops enter Constantinople on a "Peace keeping Mission".
 
Go Aryans!

Hitler will have a hard time explaining how Germany 'won' the war. With stolen information originating in the judeo-capitalist USA.
 

Xen

Banned


This is a map to give you an idea of how I envision Europe in 1954, with a slight revision.

The Light Blue are members of the United Nations
The Yellow are neutral nations
The Pink are Nazi allied nations
The Brown is the Greater Reich

EDIT: You may notice Palestine looks kind of green, it is because I am debating on if not to change my mind about creating an Israeli state or not.
 
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Why are some countries named in their own language, some in English (Russia) and some in German (Griechenland)? An oversight? Does this have anything to do with the fact that some are in italics?
Doe these "revisions" mean Greece and Turkey are no longer split? More sensible, I think. Otherwise, DuQuesne's timeline tooks plausible. For me, the tricky bits are-
To make Russia abandon communism. This Russia is not the Vlasov-led German puppet that many Nazi-victory TLs have but a large powerful state allied to the US/UK.
One clue is that you have destalinisation start in 1948. IOTL, it started in '56 with the Secret Speech (made by Khrushchev, who ITTL has almost certainly been executed by the Germans), 3 years after Stalin's death. Maybe ITTL Stalin is killed in the bombing of Leningrad, and Zhukov (as the hero of the Great Patriotic War) wins the power struggle, possibly after making his own Secret Speech. Given that the Soviets spread rumours during the war that the police state would be relaxed after it, perhaps with Stalin dead there's no postwar crackdown and instead liberalisation. That gets us partway to a reversion to "Russia", but not all the way. Maybe the stalemate end to the war means Russia must accept Marshall Plan aid...

Also, you need a fairly early POD (Sicily landings fail?) to make Italy remain an ally of Germany.
 

Xen

Banned
Why are some countries named in their own language, some in English (Russia) and some in German (Griechenland)? An oversight? Does this have anything to do with the fact that some are in italics?

I just recolored a map, and changed the Soviet Union to Russia and the Hammer and Sickle to the current Russian Flag.


Doe these "revisions" mean Greece and Turkey are no longer split? More sensible, I think. Otherwise, DuQuesne's timeline tooks plausible.

Yeah, I think having Turkey and Greece split was stretching things a bit much so what remains of Greece is allied to the west and Turkey is neutral in the Cold War (though it favors the west)

For me, the tricky bits are-
To make Russia abandon communism. This Russia is not the Vlasov-led German puppet that many Nazi-victory TLs have but a large powerful state allied to the US/UK.
One clue is that you have destalinisation start in 1948. IOTL, it started in '56 with the Secret Speech (made by Khrushchev, who ITTL has almost certainly been executed by the Germans), 3 years after Stalin's death. Maybe ITTL Stalin is killed in the bombing of Leningrad, and Zhukov (as the hero of the Great Patriotic War) wins the power struggle, possibly after making his own Secret Speech. Given that the Soviets spread rumours during the war that the police state would be relaxed after it, perhaps with Stalin dead there's no postwar crackdown and instead liberalisation. That gets us partway to a reversion to "Russia", but not all the way. Maybe the stalemate end to the war means Russia must accept Marshall Plan aid...

With the Germans fairing better in the war, Stalin is killed, and Zhukov eventually takes command in a military coup. Since most people have come to believe the Soviet Union a failed state, and see the Hammer and Sickle as a symbol of the brutal policies of Stalin (which Zhukov is all too happy to remind people of to justify his own coup) the flag is changed, and the Republic of Russia replaces the USSR. It is not a democracy but a military dictatorship, with policies that are conservative by western standards, but are more liberal compared to Stalin.

Also, you need a fairly early POD (Sicily landings fail?) to make Italy remain an ally of Germany.

What I have been leaning to is the US invades France in 1942/43 to open up a second front to relieve the Soviets. The Germans are too concerned with the Americans in France to bail the Italians out in Libya. North Africa falls to the British and Free French. Instead of going to Sicily, which I could always revise, the British invade Crete and then launch an invasion of Greece.

I did consider having southern Italy set up as a western friendly country.
 
The problem IMO is that if the US had invaded France in 1942/3 they would have been massacred. No air superiority, not enough experienced troops and not enough landing craft are three pretty huge problems.
 
Course if the US adopts a Japan first policy [not what FDR/Churchill wanted] due to domestic pressure.
Then you get V-J day in June 1945.

Meanwhile Britain takes NAfrica 1942, Greece 1943, Norway 1944 , Sicily- March 1945, D-day July 1945, early August -Netherlands,
By mid august troops are approaching the Rhine and the Russians have just reached the 1919 borders in the north, In the south Russia is slugging it out in the Ukraine.

August 21st, 23nd
Moscow, and then Leningrad are the first two cities to experience Nuclear Sunrises.

August 25
Some unknown Officer, calling Himself Chancellor of Germany contacts the Allies,
Tells them that Hitler and Himmler et al, have contacted Lead Poisoning.
Informs them that they know the US has Two Bombs [FBI & OSS have collective heart failure] and offers to negotiate.
 
IMO, the nazis having the bomb is close to ASB. Also, once the allies are back in France, and the russians still fighting I honestly can't see how the war does not end in the end of the Reich.
But there is another way to get this cold war. Simply, France and GB DO NOT declare war on Germany in 1939. The germans go for the USSR. After a savage two years war, that goes much worse than OTLs for the USSR, Stalin is killed by their own and replaced by Zhukov (or whoever you want). The soviets agree to a peace that leaves Ukraine, The Baltic and the Caucasus in german hands.
Later, in 1944, the germans invade the Balcans and Greece, but do not dare to do more in face of the US new atomic toys, showed in the parallel war in the Pacific. (US_FR_GB against Japan).
There remains the spanish question. We´ll need another POD to make the Republicans win the SPC.
 
Later, in 1944, the germans invade the Balcans and Greece, but do not dare to do more in face of the US new atomic toys, showed in the parallel war in the Pacific. (US_FR_GB against Japan).
There remains the spanish question. We´ll need another POD to make the Republicans win the SPC.
Greece on Xen's new map is independent and part of the Allies. Perhaps from 1939-44 the Metaxas Line is finished, and the lack of a war in Europe means that Britain can provide more aid, but even so it's unlikely that the Greeks (plus Commonwealth expeditionary forces) can stop a Germany which is not currently engaged anywhere else. Still, the Finns did it with Russia...
More likely is that with no Italian attack on Greece, the Germans ignore it. But once you've got past Yugoslavia, why stop?

Even more oddly- is this an oversight, Xen?- Bulgaria has Western Thrace. Perhaps the Greek war ends in a stalemate slightly more favourable to the Axis.
 
Spain develops as OTL until the late 1940s when Francisco Franco is shot and killed, which eventually leads Spain to a Second Civil War with Germany and Italy supporting the Nationalists and the US and UK supporting the Republicans. A coup d'etat is possible too, I just want Spain out of the Fascist camp and in the Western/Northern one for the TL. It would be much more difficult for Spain to be ignored in the ATL with a hostile Nazi Germany and Fascisty Italy to the east and south of France, nobody wants a hostile Spain to the west.

Does WW2 go as per OTL until the POD? If so, that Franco being shot is possible. On 13th July 1941 the Spanish Blue Division was sent to Russia. A plan was devised where General Agustin Munoz Grandes was to return from Russia and 'advise' Franco to join the Axis. Munoz Grandes hated the English.

If this offer was turned down, Germany would support Munoz Grandes by bombing Madrid. A civil war could ensue after this, with Franco (and Salazar?) getting support from the Western Allies and Munoz Grandes getting support from the Axis.

Sorry if it's a bit late.
 
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