Is there any way to get a significant force of American soldiers deployed to the Eastern Front of WWII? By this I mean an official expedition, not a volunteer force of American Communists. How many could be sent? How would such an army affect wartime relations between the powers (especially the Second Front demand)? How would it affect post-war relations?
American Expeditionary Force to the Eastern Front
- Thread starter Polish Eagle
- Start date
I don't tink the soviets would allow an American expeditionary force landed at the front. Certainly not if they are not communist volunteers. They are not Spain.
Besides, ealriest you can make that happen would be 1944(around February the earliest). You can land them near Leningrad, if you can survive the baltic sea.
But they where preparing for Overlord, no way they would risk ships or men too the East.
Besides, ealriest you can make that happen would be 1944(around February the earliest). You can land them near Leningrad, if you can survive the baltic sea.
But they where preparing for Overlord, no way they would risk ships or men too the East.
Honestly, the only way I could see that happening is if somehow Britain and France had capitulated, and yet somehow the US was committed to fighting German onto the end.
That's the only way the Soviets would allow it, because there is no possibility of a second front anytime soon. It's also probably the only way the US would even want to.
Unless, of course, the Communist Party was in control of the US government.
That's the only way the Soviets would allow it, because there is no possibility of a second front anytime soon. It's also probably the only way the US would even want to.
Unless, of course, the Communist Party was in control of the US government.
Since the Soviets wouldn't allow WAllied planes to base in the USSR and treated UK merchant seamen as virtual prisoners/criminals, men who'd risked their lives to deliver Lend-Lease goods to Murmansk, no I really, REALLY, REALLY don't think he'd allow it.
Anaxagoras
Banned
He also asked for British troops. I think it's clear that he was trying to spook the Americans and British into increasing their dispatch of war material by pretending to be that desperate.
The only way that Stalin would allow that would be if there was a total collapse of Great Britain combined with a near total collapse of the Soviet Union. In other words it would be a desperate Stalin grasping at straws in an attempt to save himself and the USSR. Anything besides that would be ASB.
IIRC I pitched an idea somewhat along these lines
Not to be a party-pooper- but this is near-ASB b/c:
* Stalin wanted NOBODY skeptical from the West to see how the Soviet Union really worked. They got paraded through Potemkin villages by NKVD-vetted handlers. He had no interest in doing so for a huge mob of American, British, or Allied soldiers in his rear.
* Stalin also wanted Communism to defeat the fascists as much due to the Red Army as possible and share NONE of the credit with anyone else.
* Stalin wanted supplies, not more mouths to feed, arm, and deal with. He had plenty of manpower. As long as Lend-Lease freed Gosplan to make more tanks and ammo instead of boots, food, and clothing-
Now what could make that possible?
A coup where Molotov, Beria, or some other "pragmatist" manages to give Comrade Stalin a "dignified retirement" with a 7.62 Tokarev in 1941 and allows Western troops to help push Army Group South out of the Caucasus, especially if North Africa gets wrapped up earlier by the Brits late 1942 and can send 8th Army and what would have been the American troops in Torch through Iran to train in the USSR. This is based on the Allies getting Japanese-lucky
It would be interesting if US or RAF a/c could be based in Murmansk and help lift the siege in Leningrad. Same for US/UK/Allied fighters for CAS and air-superiority missions which would have had all kinds of butterflies as the LW has to deal with much more long-range opponents in force along the battlefront putting massive pressure on German supply lines, assembly points, and mobile reserves.
Imagine Stavka having Mossies and other Western recon assets and ability to pinpont and shred the Germans' ability to reinforce whole sectors?
Bagration happens eighteen months earlier?
As to the logistical nightmare of getting enough Western ground troops (I'm figuring 20-25 divisions) being a decisive factor in that giants' dance of the Eastern Front, I'm a little skeptical.
Getting enough troops and their gear in theater through Iran to then get on transports across the Caspian Sea and assemble to be a major pain in the ass for the Soviet front commanders to deal with
OR into Vladisvostok and shipped along the Trans-Siberian RR;
AND/OR making a number of landings of troops and vehicles in Murmansk and Archangel to lift the siege in Leningrad and push south on the Byelorussian front would be tasty.
However, I have to wonder WI D-day was in Odessa in combination with Operation Uranus and how quickly they could have rolled up the Wehrmacht if it were successful?
The difference in post-war relations between the US and USSR would be worlds apart from OTL.
Not to be a party-pooper- but this is near-ASB b/c:
* Stalin wanted NOBODY skeptical from the West to see how the Soviet Union really worked. They got paraded through Potemkin villages by NKVD-vetted handlers. He had no interest in doing so for a huge mob of American, British, or Allied soldiers in his rear.
* Stalin also wanted Communism to defeat the fascists as much due to the Red Army as possible and share NONE of the credit with anyone else.
* Stalin wanted supplies, not more mouths to feed, arm, and deal with. He had plenty of manpower. As long as Lend-Lease freed Gosplan to make more tanks and ammo instead of boots, food, and clothing-
Now what could make that possible?
A coup where Molotov, Beria, or some other "pragmatist" manages to give Comrade Stalin a "dignified retirement" with a 7.62 Tokarev in 1941 and allows Western troops to help push Army Group South out of the Caucasus, especially if North Africa gets wrapped up earlier by the Brits late 1942 and can send 8th Army and what would have been the American troops in Torch through Iran to train in the USSR. This is based on the Allies getting Japanese-lucky
It would be interesting if US or RAF a/c could be based in Murmansk and help lift the siege in Leningrad. Same for US/UK/Allied fighters for CAS and air-superiority missions which would have had all kinds of butterflies as the LW has to deal with much more long-range opponents in force along the battlefront putting massive pressure on German supply lines, assembly points, and mobile reserves.
Imagine Stavka having Mossies and other Western recon assets and ability to pinpont and shred the Germans' ability to reinforce whole sectors?
Bagration happens eighteen months earlier?
As to the logistical nightmare of getting enough Western ground troops (I'm figuring 20-25 divisions) being a decisive factor in that giants' dance of the Eastern Front, I'm a little skeptical.
Getting enough troops and their gear in theater through Iran to then get on transports across the Caspian Sea and assemble to be a major pain in the ass for the Soviet front commanders to deal with
OR into Vladisvostok and shipped along the Trans-Siberian RR;
AND/OR making a number of landings of troops and vehicles in Murmansk and Archangel to lift the siege in Leningrad and push south on the Byelorussian front would be tasty.
However, I have to wonder WI D-day was in Odessa in combination with Operation Uranus and how quickly they could have rolled up the Wehrmacht if it were successful?
The difference in post-war relations between the US and USSR would be worlds apart from OTL.
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Iran was occupied by the British and Russians in 1941. If things go badly for th Russians at Stalingrad and/or Turkey joins the Axis in 1942 then you could cancel Torch and send this force up through the Persian Gulf and Iran into North Iran. From there a push up into the Caucasus to help Soviet forces liberate that area. Stalin was begging for a Second Front. Now he has one directly supporting him.
After that, assuming Turkey is an Axis ally this force couldbeused as part of a later invasion of Turkey.
After that, assuming Turkey is an Axis ally this force couldbeused as part of a later invasion of Turkey.
Turkey did declare war on Germany, albeit in February 1945.
The problem with their doing it before German defeat is inevitable is what on Earth do they get out of it? All I can think that could be offered is Cyprus.
The downside is that the Luftwaffe is still operational in 1944 and could bomb the crap out of Istanbul.
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Was there not a concern that Turkey might join the axis in 1942. This option has been floated before in The Moscow Option (David Downing) and in Third Reich Victorious (John H. Gill's chapter Into the Caucasus ) but theses scenarios were never developed into the late war period beyond the end of 1942.
I don't think Stalin would want US troops inside the USSR. That said, I can imagine the US Army Air Force operating on the Eastern Front, via the Far East. Yup, it is a huge stretch, US aircrew on Soviet transports sailing between the USA and the USSR while the Japanese leave those transports alone. The Americans will be fighting the Euroaxis, not Japan, so maybe it could work.
Another possibility is if the USN sent warships all the way to the Soviet northern ports. Then we might see the Marines joining in the defense of the ports in an emergency.
The Arctic Marines, a book detailing the story of a USMC brigade, the Seebees, and the ships' sailors who fought to defend Murmansk.
Another possibility is if the USN sent warships all the way to the Soviet northern ports. Then we might see the Marines joining in the defense of the ports in an emergency.
The Arctic Marines, a book detailing the story of a USMC brigade, the Seebees, and the ships' sailors who fought to defend Murmansk.
The RAF had some forces on the Eastern Front. A couple of days ago The One Show (of all programmes) had a little feature about one of the veterans. It isn't completely impossible that a few more US troops could be sent over.