American expansion during the Revolutionary War?

I'm reposting this question in case everyone ignores it again.

Could the U.S. have successfully held on to any British possessions in the West Indies following the ARW? It did capture Nassau, the most significant city in the Bahamas, after all. On the other hand, was it likely for the resulting treaty of the war to cause capture territories to revert to status quo ante bellum?
 
I always thought that with a POD a little before the ARW--you know, not allowing the West Indies to have their own seats in Parliament--you could get the WIs to go with the US when the war came around. But I don't think that's very helpful. :D

Anyway, if the US actually managed to capture and keep the West Indies and Florida, despite the Royal Navy, I see no reason why they wouldn't want to keep them, albeit as territories rather than actual states.
 
I think the best chance would involve a significant UK beat down during the war by the Americans' European allies. Just as the Seven Years' War began in North America and that theater remained a sideshow of sorts for the European war it sparked, this 7YW II would begin in North America with the ARW and then spread to Europe, the Caribbean, Africa, India, etc.

France would regain Quebec, Holland various bits and pieces, islands traded in the Caribbean, and the new born US given something somewhere both as a sop and so they'd be in Britain's cross-hairs thus remain part of the anti-UK European coalition.
 
I always thought that with a POD a little before the ARW--you know, not allowing the West Indies to have their own seats in Parliament--you could get the WIs to go with the US when the war came around. But I don't think that's very helpful. :D

the West Indies didn't have seats in Parliament. Unless you count the ones the nabobs bought...

I think you could see Florida being taken, but Georgia was underpopulated in this period as it was. Canada is too far away and lacks any real base of support... Hrm.
 
the West Indies didn't have seats in Parliament. Unless you count the ones the nabobs bought...

I think you could see Florida being taken, but Georgia was underpopulated in this period as it was. Canada is too far away and lacks any real base of support... Hrm.

While the Canadiens didn't actively support the Patriots they didn't exactly flock to the British ether. At the start of the war they were more neutral then anything until after the prolonged invasion began to take its toll on Quebec's economy. So if Montgomery and Arnold manage to win the Battle of Quebec early enough then Canada would have been a part of the USA and the American Revolution would have ended before France and Spain joined so the British would have ceded Florida as well.
 
BERMUDA
Bermuda was almost captured twice during the Revolution:

1. http://www.redcoat.me.uk/bermuda.htm <--Details both the 1777 USS Randolph attempt to take the island and the more detailed 1779 attempt stopped by HMS Delaware. By ten freaking minutes! :eek:
2. http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bmuwgw/ships7.htm <--Confirms the Randolph as being at Bermuda in June 1777 specifically.
3. http://www.carolana.com/SC/Revolution/sc_troops_militia_outside_sc.html <--Confirms the 'two brigs' noted in the first link as being at Castle Harbor and thus gives the specific date of the Randolph/the two brigs as being at 13 JUN 1777.
4. http://books.google.com/books?id=ZI...nepage&q=Had the Continental Congress&f=false <--Notes that Bermuda had sympathies enough to America that had the Continental Congress 'possessed a fleet' that could've held Bermuda, the colony might be lost to England.
5. http://books.google.com/books?id=Iu...&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false <--Bermudians actually sent delegates to the Continental Congress.

Bermuda in general was sympathetic to Americans both on principle (it was the second-oldest British colony and an official offshoot of Virginia), and for pragmatism - it gave gunpowder to Washington in the infamous 1775 'gunpowder plot' and was the ONLY British territory America traded officially with during the war; Bermuda needing food as badly as America needed Bermudian salt. Generally, had the Americans JUST been lucky to hold on in 1777 or get there ten minutes faster in 1779, the colony would've been in a desperate enough position to give in and join up.

BAHAMAS
IGNORE THE 1776 RAID. That was ALWAYS meant to be just a raid and nothing more. However, the Americans were generally thought to have been INVITED, which should give you some insight into the Patriot sympathies Bahamians held. Rather like Bermuda, the Bahamas had a 'ALMOST' in being captured in 1778. The following links explain:
1. http://books.google.com/books?id=UG...ult#v=onepage&q=Battle of Nassau 1782&f=false <--LT Rathburn occupies Nassau again in 1778. Had he ambushed HMS Gayton successfully he likely would have held the island chain, as the islands were not valuable enough for warships to cruise around and protect compared to Jamaica or the Leeward Islands. Indeed, the Spanish expedition (readable as you go down) captured the isles without a fight...then a Loyalist expedition (further down, again) did the same in 1782!
2. http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/escorts/de1057.htm <--gives the specific date of Rathburn's occupation as 27 JAN 1778 and more details on his occupation.
3. http://books.google.com/books?id=ud...#v=onepage&q=Bahamas American culture&f=false <--More details on the American occupations. Also details how America and the Bahamas continued to share culture and blood both before, during, and most importantly well after the ARW.
4. http://books.google.com/books?id=M5...&ct=result#v=onepage&q=Gillon Bahamas&f=false <--Information on the 1782 Spanish capture. Actually, note how 'without American help, there would have been no attack on the Bahamas.'
5. http://books.google.com/books?id=Iu...&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false <--Same link as Bermuda #5, but note: the Bahamians may have invited the 1776 raid themselves. If that doesn't spell 'pro-American', I don't know what does.

The Bahamas, like Bermuda, were an official offshoot of a mainland colony (South Carolina) and in this case also were sympathetic to American concerns both princpled and pragmatic. They also were similar to Bermuda in that they only truly became important AFTER the Revolution concluded; with massive population increase and new strategic interest. Again, had the Gayton not been warned in time Rathburn likely could've held Nassau for good.

Ironically, the Loyalists were still American and on both island chains demanded and got the Lord Proprieters kicked out (in the Bahamas) and more powerful legistative assemblies produced, rather like how New Brunswick was split off for Loyalist demands.
 
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BERMUDA
Bermuda was almost captured twice during the Revolution:

The British had a navy, which they used to blockade America. How would the troops on the USS Randolph be enough to keep the islands American for the rest of the war?

While the Canadiens didn't actively support the Patriots they didn't exactly flock to the British ether. At the start of the war they were more neutral then anything until after the prolonged invasion began to take its toll on Quebec's economy. So if Montgomery and Arnold manage to win the Battle of Quebec early enough then Canada would have been a part of the USA and the American Revolution would have ended before France and Spain joined so the British would have ceded Florida as well.

Okay, I can see Quebec falling. And then? The economy still sucks, the colony is occupied by English-speakers who burn the Pope in effigy...
 
The British had a navy, which they used to blockade America. How would the troops on the USS Randolph be enough to keep the islands American for the rest of the war?

The Royal navy was focused elsewhere during the war. It's perfectly plausible for the British to send more ships at a later point in time but they didn't really consider the Bahamas to be valuable until after the war.

Okay, I can see Quebec falling. And then? The economy still sucks, the colony is occupied by English-speakers who burn the Pope in effigy...

Except that the economy tanked because the siege had dragged on for a long time. So if the Patriots take it early enough then they can avoid the damage caused the OTL invasion did and most of the inhabitants would remain neutral or maybe perhaps a few more would join other republican sympathizers. And sure, the Patriots could antagonize the public for religious reasons, if they're that stupid. But since there's no good in alienating potential allies then I don't see why the Patriots would bother.
 
With French support in the field and the negotiating table its possible many West Indian colonists were sympathetic to the rebellion. Antigua was particularly friendly. Here are a couple of quotes from none other than Horatio Nelson

The Americans were at this time trading with our islands, taking advantage of the register of their ships, which had been issued while they were British subjects. Nelson knew that, by the Navigation Act, no foreigners, directly or indirectly, are permitted to carry on any trade with these possessions. He knew, also, that the Americans had made themselves foreigners with regard to England; they had disregarded the ties of blood and language when they acquired the independence which they had been led on to claim, unhappily for themselves before they were fit for it; and he was resolved that they should derive no profit from those ties now. Foreigners they had made themselves, and as foreigners they were to be treated.

The Antiguan Colonists are as great rebels as ever were in America, had they the power to show it
 
The British had a navy, which they used to blockade America. How would the troops on the USS Randolph be enough to keep the islands American for the rest of the war?

Bermuda only attained strategic importance and value as a major naval base precisely AFTER the ARW, when the USA was formed. The HMS Nautilus was a junk brig and was mostly for show. It was kept safe precisely by not taking on the Randolph.

In 1779, again, give the rebel ships mentioned a lead and to set up to battle HMS Delaware, and you'll likely find no new ships to re-capture Bermuda since they're cooped up defending against the planned 1779 French invasion or readying to protect the more valuable West Indian islands.
 
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The British had a navy, which they used to blockade America. How would the troops on the USS Randolph be enough to keep the islands American for the rest of the war?


They can't, which is why we need a different ARW which is part of something like "7YW II".
 

JJohnson

Banned
Strategos,

Good question, and also some good links in there as well, Umbric! I might snatch some of that info to revamp my own timeline that I had been working on a long time ago...
 
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