American Civil War: After Lincoln Inaguration Speech CSA goes to negotiation table.

Loghain

Banned
Okay apparently in First Inaguration Speech Lincoln hinted at allowing the Slavery to continue in attempt to avoid the secession. What would happen If CSA reacts to this and there is last attempt to avoid war.
Obviously aside from slavery CSA would propably demand bigger autonomy. so what happens ?
it is possible for war not to happen ?
 
Okay apparently in First Inaguration Speech Lincoln hinted at allowing the Slavery to continue in attempt to avoid the secession. What would happen If CSA reacts to this and there is last attempt to avoid war.
Obviously aside from slavery CSA would propably demand bigger autonomy. so what happens ?
it is possible for war not to happen ?

Since Lincoln had said countless times that he had no authority or desire to interfere with slavery where it existed, why would secessionists change their minds because he said it yet again?
 
If negotiations happen what would be the most propable result ?
Most likely still war. The Union considered the secessions to be illegal and the CSA to be an illegitimate rogue state. Even if they agree to come to the table at all, it's unlikely that anything is achieved there.
 
Might happen if Southerners would be smart enough.

By the time Lincoln gave the speech, the Confederates had long since crossed the Rubicon, and they viewed the speech as nothing more or less than a declaration of war. All Lincoln had said was that no force would be used *except* to "enforce the laws" or defend federal property. Even some northern Democrats agreed that this meant war:

"The other fact to be considered is, that Mr. Lincoln not only denies the right of secession, but ignores the thing itself. He regards the Union as unbroken. Secession, he says, is either insurrection or revolution. So we have contended. But secession is a fact, nevertheless; and because a State may not legally secede, it is folly to say that seven States have not seceded. Yet Mr. Lincoln does say this; and he gives us to understand—that is to say, we think he gives us to understand—that he will proceed in the administration of the government precisely as though secession were only one of the superstitions of the dark ages. He will not recognize it as a fact, because he cannot excuse it. He will not recognize States as having revolted because he does not find any constitutional right to revolt.

"Now, throwing all theories aside, we say that to administer the government upon this principle—to ignore the fact of secession or revolution, or what ever it may be called—in the execution of the federal laws, even to the qualified extent to which Mr. Lincoln pledges himself, must involve the government in a war with the seceded States. To this complexion it must come at last. Sooner or later we must realize that the South has gone out. We may call it revolution, or we may say, in reference to the right of it, as Mr. Lincoln says on another point “The Constitution does not expressly say.” But there stands secession—bold and palpable; and if we refuse to recognize it to-day, we shall have to recognize it, with arms in our hands, to-morrow. It cannot long be dodged. There is an irrepressible conflict between the simple fact which stares us in the face when we look Southward, and the execution of the laws as proposed by the President..." https://www.historians.org/teaching...index/providence-daily-post/what-does-he-mean

(Of course the Confederates would be happy to negotiate with Lincoln--as long as he recognized them as an independent nation, and the only subject of the negotiations would be the relations between the two independent nations.)
 
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Bytor

Monthly Donor
Most likely still war. The Union considered the secessions to be illegal and the CSA to be an illegitimate rogue state. Even if they agree to come to the table at all, it's unlikely that anything is achieved there.

Even Lincoln needed the spark of Ft. Sumter to be able to call up the army for attacking the CSA, and we know he knew that because he said that the federal government would not start the war. Add in that a Lincoln's support was not universal (his main opponent in the election was Stephen Douglas, a supporter of popular sovereignty), any attempt he would have made to call up an army without provocation like Ft. Sumter would either have been ignored and possibly even been viewed as illegal.

After the 1860 elections the Democrats still has 30 senators to the Republican's 29, In the House, in the states that did not secede the Republicans lost 8 previously held seats (mostly to Democrats) and only gained 3 from Democrats. In the House races that happened in 1861 after Sumter and after the start of the war the Republicans lost 2 seats to the Democrats, 2 to the Unionists and only gained one new at-large seat in California that did not have an incumbent. In many places, the Republican keeps were tepid or even tenuous.

So any attempt by Lincoln to call up an army without a provocation to prevent secession would probably have been political suicide as as any Republican Representative or Senator in ridings with close votes would start voting with the Democrats and Unionists on key issues that Lincoln would need to prosecute a war. At worst, any actions viewed as illegal (such as trying to call up an army without the necessary reason like Ft. Sumter) could get Lincoln impeached and even removed from office.

Now because Lincoln was adamant abut not giving up US Army forts to the South, one could plausibly argue that if not Ft. Sumter some other place would have eventually provided the spark that Lincoln needed. But it's also equally plausible that it wouldn't happen since Major Anderson had offered to evacuate by the 15th and all that is required is for Colonel Chesnut to have once again returned to Beauregard with this offer as he had with the note from Anderson about not firing the first shot instead of deciding on his own to start bombardment.

Without such a spark, Lincoln has no way to enforce the declared illegality of secession, and Great Britain and France would, almost certainly, recognise the Confederacy in the absence of a war.

The two sides would then probably stare at each other and enact tariffs designed to punish the other, but the integration of their economies would be such that they'd also hurt themselves just as much and a recession both countries would result. Domino recognition of the Confederacy by European countries is something the Union could not ignore and while Great Britain would still need Union agricultural products (or risk not be able to feed their own) there'd be political pressure for the USA to recognise the CSA. By the time the 1864 elections rolled around in the Union, that combination of internal recession and the external pressure would mean that there would be a significant movement to recognise the CSA and remove the tariffs to restore economic growth. Of those two actions, removing the tariffs is the most likely to happen and recognition might not happen until post-1868 or even post-1872.
 
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My problem with all scenarios about a war being avoided over Fort Sumter (either by Lincoln abandoning it--which he might well have done if he knew that Pickens had been succesfully reinforced [1]--or by the Confederates not attacking it) is this:

Lincoln's next step (once it becomes clear that Seward's hopes of a Unionist reaction in the South leading to voluntary reconstruction are not going to be fulfilled) is probably going to be to collect the revenues offshore. A nation claiming to be independent can allow a foreign nation to have a couple of forts in its territory--plenty of nations after all have allowed US bases on their soil. What it *cannot* allow is to have a foreign nation collect revenues on its imports. As Thomas Clingman of North Carolina said:

"I confess, Mr. President, that I do not know whether or not I understand the views of [Buchanan's] message exactly on some points. There is something said in it about collecting the revenue. I fully agree with the President that there is no power or right in this government to attempt to coerce a State back into the Union; but if the State does secede, and thus becomes a foreign State, it seems to me equally clear that you have no right to collect taxes in it. It is not pretended that we can collect taxes at British or other foreign ports from commerce going in there. If a State of the Union secedes, and becomes a foreign State, it cannot be touched. The most offensive form of coercion which could be adopted would be that of levying tribute. I have no doubt that most of the governments of Europe would release their dependencies from the claim on them for protection and for postal facilities, &e., if they would just pay the government all the money it might think proper to exact. I do not know, sir, whether I am given to understand from the message that there is a purpose to continue the collection of duties in any contingency; but if that be the policy, I have no doubt some collision may occur."

http://books.google.com/books?id=ymUFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA519

If the revenues are collected "peacefully" this puts the burden back on the South to fire the first shot.

[1] See my post at
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.what-if/msg/f555a6021767a9f1
 

Bytor

Monthly Donor
Lincoln's next step (once it becomes clear that Seward's hopes of a Unionist reaction in the South leading to voluntary reconstruction are not going to be fulfilled) is probably going to be to collect the revenues offshore. A nation claiming to be independent can allow a foreign nation to have a couple of forts in its territory--plenty of nations after all have allowed US bases on their soil. What it *cannot* allow is to have a foreign nation collect revenues on its imports. As Thomas Clingman of North Carolina said:

Basically what you're describing is piracy. Given that for the first while it would be British & French ships carrying that Confederate cargo, how long do you think they're going to let Union ships stop them and collect "duty"? That's bound to raise the ire of the British Navy right quick.
 
Basically what you're describing is piracy. Given that for the first while it would be British & French ships carrying that Confederate cargo, how long do you think they're going to let Union ships stop them and collect "duty"? That's bound to raise the ire of the British Navy right quick.

No, not piracy but war--if you assume the Confederacy is an independent nation. (Of course if the CSA isn't an independent nation, then it's perfectly normal execution of the revenue laws). Of course the Confederacy will consider it an act of war--so all I'm saying is that it's an alternate way for the war to start if the situation with the forts doesn't start it. The only question is whether the Upper South states will be more or less likely to secede and join the Confederacy than in OTL. My guess is that it will be about the same--those Upper South conditional Unionists who said they would stay in the Union if the North didn't coerce those states which had seceded would probably consider collecting the revenue "coercion" as much as an attempt to resupply Fort Sumter. As for the UK and France, they would be no more or less likely to go to war with the US than in OTL.

(Piracy is by definition a private act under international law. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470670590.wbeog458/pdf)
 
...those Upper South conditional Unionists who said they would stay in the Union if the North didn't coerce those states which had seceded...

I find it hard to believe that there was a significant number of Upper South men who would refrain from secession if it was permitted. The conditional Unionists wanted to avoid war, and IMHO disunion. But they thought the proper remedy for secession was for the North to agree to the South's demands regarding slavery thereby winning back the Deep South states, and also removing any reason for the Upper South slave states to secede. I cannot see any Upper South state refraining from secession if the Deep South stays out and North-dominated U.S. policy remains in any way anti-slavery.
 
Basically what you're describing is piracy. Given that for the first while it would be British & French ships carrying that Confederate cargo, how long do you think they're going to let Union ships stop them and collect "duty"? That's bound to raise the ire of the British Navy right quick.

If otl is anything to go by the commander Americas station would organise an orderly means of inspection and arrange for RN officers to accompany the US revenue agents going about their lawful duties.

At no point does the UK recognise the existence of the CSA. Doing this is actually slightly more orderly than a blockade.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Lincoln's next step (once it becomes clear that Seward's hopes of a Unionist reaction in the South leading to voluntary reconstruction are not going to be fulfilled) is probably going to be to collect the revenues offshore. A nation claiming to be independent can allow a foreign nation to have a couple of forts in its territory--plenty of nations after all have allowed US bases on their soil. What it *cannot* allow is to have a foreign nation collect revenues on its imports.

Basically what you're describing is piracy. Given that for the first while it would be British & French ships carrying that Confederate cargo, how long do you think they're going to let Union ships stop them and collect "duty"? That's bound to raise the ire of the British Navy right quick.

No, not piracy but war--if you assume the Confederacy is an independent nation. (Of course if the CSA isn't an independent nation, then it's perfectly normal execution of the revenue laws). Of course the Confederacy will consider it an act of war--so all I'm saying is that it's an alternate way for the war to start if the situation with the forts doesn't start it.

Two things are worth pointing out here:

1) While I fully agree with @David T's assessment that such action by the Union would be very likely to be seen as an act of war by the Confederacy, it must be kept in mind that acts of war by another nation does not compel one to retaliate. One can protest loudly, one can identify these acts as illegal... and still not fire back. This is by no means an admission that your nationhood is somehow void. In this specific instance, it would indeed be the smartest course for the Confederacy. In part because...

2) @Bytor correctly notes that, at least for the first while, there will be lots of British and French ships carrying that Confederate cargo. If the Union boards those ships to 'collect duty', one may expect those merchants - who will consider themselves to not be trading with the USA to refuse. Which will force the US navy to impose on British and French merchants with violence. Britain and France will respond to that in a very clear way. Namely by ordering a cessation of such violence, full compensation for any 'duty' already imposed and any damage done, and a formal apology. If not granted, they will most likely declare war on the Union without hesitating. In the case of Britain, this willingness is historically demonstrated by the Trent debacle, and I have little doubt that France will refrain from joining in (in only nominally) if Britain takes such steps.

So, really, this whole way of dealing with the issue is suicidal for Lincoln. He can't 'collect duty' from foreign fessels, and the majority of vessels in question will be foreign. No doubt the Confederacy will understand this, and will be eager to make highly lucrative offers to British and French merchants to ensure they avail their vessels for just this purpose. This brings us back to square one. The Confederacy has seceded itself, the Union refuses to recognise the secession, but Lincoln as yet has no good excuse for raising an army. In another thread, I've pointed out that the smart thing to do, for the Confederates, would be to curry the maximum amount of international favour. That is: deplore the 'illegal and warlike seizures on the open sea', openly call for international arbitration to resolve the situation peacefully, offer as lucrative (free) trade deals as possible to as many foreign powers as possible, and - this is the kicker - openly offer to fully, extravagantly compensate the Union for all federal property in the south.

At that point, what is Lincoln going to do?

Mind you, I'm not saying the South would be that smart. Far more likely, they'll do the hot-headed thing and declare war. At that point, Lincoln can put a nice blockade in place, and since there's a war going on, no foreign power can call that unreasonable. But suppose that Confederates play it cool, as above. What then? They look for all the world like rather reasonable fellows, suddenly. The longer they stay separate, the more legitimate they become. With trade deals being worked out, they become partners to foreign powers. At some point, a war of aggression from the North - without a clear cause - is not going to be accepted by those trade partners (i.e. Britain and France). And surely, in the not too distant future, they will recognise de jure what is already evident de facto: that the Confederate States are independent. Come next election, Lincoln is going to be kicked to the curb, and the next administration is going to try to normalise relations, at least to some extent.

(Again, this would require the South to be really cool and collected about basically everything, but it can be done. It wasn't likely, but it hardly seems like ASB material.)
 
The last part will be hard.

The csa will have to attempt to export to the world, which they did not, and theUSA can put whatever tariffs it likes on cotton making them uncompetitive.in fact it can require all cotton exports to be recertified in Boston and remittances for payment to be cleared to the cotton bank of the USA , Hartford Ct if it wants.

As it is neither the U.K. Or France went to war for slavery because of a shortage of cotton before a disputed election becomes explicitly a war against slavery.
 

Bytor

Monthly Donor
The last part will be hard.

The csa will have to attempt to export to the world, which they did not, and theUSA can put whatever tariffs it likes on cotton making them uncompetitive.in fact it can require all cotton exports to be recertified in Boston and remittances for payment to be cleared to the cotton bank of the USA , Hartford Ct if it wants.

As it is neither the U.K. Or France went to war for slavery because of a shortage of cotton before a disputed election becomes explicitly a war against slavery.

Except this time it won't be a war for slavery. OTL, Britain and France didn't spend that much energy because their ships weren't getting boarded or attacked.

But without a war, there's no reason for Britain and France to not start trading right away, so if the USA were to starts trying to impose duties through force, it becomes a war to protect their own trade, not to protect slavery.

Given that Britain and France, in spite of having slavery illegal in their own territories, showed no compunction against trading with other nations that still had slavery. And they also Protected Their trade with those other nations, so there's no reason to believe that the same thing would not happen with the Confederate States of America.
 
For those who doubt that Lincoln was seriously considering collecting the revenues offshore, see Russell McClintock, *Lincoln and the Decision for War: The Northern Response to Secession,* p. 216-17:

"As if the situation were not complicated enough, a new problem now arose, one that threatened to make all previous calculations concerning the fragile national situation obsolete. On March 1, the first Confederate tariff, or import tax, went into effect, lowering import duties to the level of the United States' 1857 tariff. On April 1, the new Morrill tariff, which the Republicans had passed after the departure of the Deep South delegates had left them in control of Congress, was scheduled to raise U.S. rates to almost twice that level. Northeastern merchants, especially in New York, began to panic as they realized that "when the tariffs get into working order in opposition to each other, not only will the people of the Gulf States do all their own importing, but they will drive Northern importers out of the Western market also." [The quote is from the March 1 New York Herald] The worry was that the smuggling of cheap European imports from New Orleans into the western states and territories would disconnect the East from the West economically; moreover, the Confederacy's lower tariff might lure the border states out of the Union altogether.

"Here was evidence that a hands-off policy might not be viable, even in the short term. Lincoln had been sure to point out in his inaugural that the government retained the authority "to collect the duties and imposts" - that is, the federal tariff - in the Southern ports, even though the Treasury Department had no way to enforce it. He now began to give serious consideration to collecting the revenue via warships anchored offshore. It was an idea that had been batted around since the crisis began - Winfield Scott had suggested it in his "Views" back in late October - but the House had never passed a proposed bill to authorize such collections. On March 18, Lincoln requested opinions from relevant cabinet officials as to whether offshore vessels could be used effectively to collect import duties, how large a force could be made available for revenue collection and how long it would take to assemble, and whether collecting duties offshore was constitutional if no other method were possible.

"Both secessionists and most Upper South unionists warned that stationing warships off of Southern ports would provoke hostilities. With the new tariff due to go into effect in two weeks, though, Lincoln could see few alternatives; the economic competition would inflict further damage on an already deeply wounded economy, and to forego the collection of taxes would be to sacrifice one of the most basic tasks of government. As with Sumter, he could not postpone a decision for long." https://books.google.com/books?id=TBeqbaOxdMMC&pg=PA217
 

Skallagrim

Banned
The csa will have to attempt to export to the world, which they did not, (...)

Perhaps I misunderstand you here, but... are you claiming the Southern states weren't historically engaged in export? Because they were. The Southern states had rapidly evolved into the free trade advocates, while the North wanted more protectionist policies. That, in fact, had been the background for initial north versus south divisions, before slavery even became a real point of contention.


(...) and theUSA can put whatever tariffs it likes on cotton making them uncompetitive.in fact it can require all cotton exports to be recertified in Boston and remittances for payment to be cleared to the cotton bank of the USA , Hartford Ct if it wants.

But for the time being, the CSA is not under US control, and considers itself an independent nation unbound by tarriffs. To make a very accurate comparison: the policies of Lincoln mean as much to the South upon its secession as the policies of king George did the USA on July 5th, 1776. What the North cares to require or demand means nothing to them.


As it is neither the U.K. Or France went to war for slavery because of a shortage of cotton before a disputed election becomes explicitly a war against slavery.

It wouldn't be a war for slavery. Very clearly, Britain and France are happy to stay on the sidelines and watch it play out. The point being made at this juncture is that if the South just refuses to take military action while happily asserting its independence, Lincoln will be in a spot of trouble. He can't raise an army. He'll have to rely on his other option, namely the whole thing with the tarriffs. It's very clear that this was indeed his intention. As @David T pointed out in the post quoted below...

For those who doubt that Lincoln was seriously considering collecting the revenues offshore (...)

...yet observe that no-one here has denied that this intent was very real. It is only being pointed out that actually doing it will cause the Union a lot of trouble. As long as the South stays cool, and protests vehemently but does not engage, while calling for international arbitration... this whole policy makes the North look bad and South look good. The revenues will be negligible, because there is no way Lincoln is stupid enough to attack foreign ships (at least if they belong to serious powers such as Britain or France). Britain and France are still neutral, but they will trade with the CSA. They were quite willing to in OTL. They accepted the blockade because open war had erupted, but this is a different scenario. At this point, there are two conflicting claims regarding the status of the CSA. Battle has not yet erupted. Legally, as far as foreign powers are concerned, the CSA is a political entity, although not a country as yet. It's in limbo, so to speak. Unlike in OTL, there is no war yet. Negotiation, possibly with arbitration, is still in the cards. For foreign powers to accept the Union navy's power to tax their vessels when trading with Southern ports would mean that they accept that the Union is right. It means choosing a side.

Trading with the CSA, contrarily, implies no such thing. You can trade with anyone. To choose their side, you'd have to recognise them as a country. Foreign powers are, as yet, doing no such thing. This is why Britain, France and all the rest of the world will most certainly refuse to accept mr. Lincoln's ambitious plans of boarding their vessels. If he tries, he is at war. And he knows it. OTL's Trent Affair proves that he might 'test the waters', but will back down when war threatens. Which it will. This in turn means that he can only board and tax Confederate vessels. The Confederates will underatand that, no doubt. They will no doubt do their utmost to make deals with foreign merchants, so those will make their foreign vessels available for the purposes of trade between the Confederacy and the world at large. In particular, they'll want British ships. Which has the side effect of increasing Britain's economic incentives to let the CSA exist.

Those incentives are already there, of course. Not to the point of fighting a war over it, but as mentioned, the South was in favour of free trade. As was Britain. In OTL, Britain chose to respect the blockade, which in the context of open hostilities was a perfectly normal measure. But before the blockade, British merchants were all too happy to exploit the secession crisis to engage in lucrative business, and during he blockade, most (in fact nearly all) blockade runners were British. In OTL as well, Britain soon looked for other sources of cotton, and found them-- but this was not at once profitable. Just better than actively meddling in a war in America. It would have been far more ideal for Britain to engage in free trade with the South, and the ATL scenario I'm outlining here allows for that. At least until north and South open mutual hostilities, at which point a blockade will be instituted, and thing will go as in OTL, albeit starting later.

Yet... when, if ever, will those hostilities commence? I fully agree that a tranquil Southern reaction to all these goings-on is unlikely. Presumably, the South will start shooting over their ships being boarded by the US navy, and then Lincoln has his war. Again, things go as in OTL, but with some delay.

And yet, and yet... this thread is about a negotiated resolution. Let's assume, then, that the Southern leadership is as sane as it can be, and keeps calm. North and South are now raising tarriffs against one another, but trade between the South and the outside world is being conducted by foreign merchant vessels, and the North can only watch and gnash its teeth. As that book quote by @David T illustrates, the sudden absence of Southern tarriff revenue was a big blow to the North. This whole affair is economically damaging both sides, but the South delivers raw materials and imports manufactures. It can do that from damn near anywhere. It can export its materials to urope and import European manufactures. Its free trade policy aligns well with British policy. After the whole shock wears off (and before eventual political considerations re: slavery will turn Britain well and truly against the CSA), the South will not be much worse off.

The North, on the other hand, did in fact rely quite a bit on those Southern raw materials. Triangular trade never truly died, and Northern industry - while proclaiming moral superiority - fed itself with the raw produce of the slave plantations. Often have I pointed out this irony: much as Lost Causers like to claim that it wasn't about slavery for the South... it was. But just as much, many defenders of the Union like to claim that the war was fought by the North to free the slaves... but it wasn't. The South fought chiefly for slavery, and the North fought chiefly for its economic interests.

So where does that leave Lincoln, when his tarriff plan proves more or less useless? When the world trades with the South just as it trades with other slave-holding nations? When he can do nothing about it without provoking an international war against enemies he cannot defeat? When every passing day strengthens the foreign interest in letting the CSA continue to exist? When the CSA is looking innocent, calling for arbitration and offering to compensate the Federal government for material losses? When the USA looks like an aggressive bully, choosing violence when the nogotiating table is available? When sure, sooner rather than later, some foreign power is going to recognise the CSA, thus becoming to the South what France was to the fledgling USA? When any attempt to raise an army and march it though the Upper South will make the Upper South secede and join the CSA? (And probably not just the OTL seceding states, but trying-to-be-neutral Kentucky, too.)

What other option does Lincoln have, except to start negotiating a deal? Or more accurately: what option does he have that's less bad?

(I say again: this scenario is far from the likeliest, because the South is way more likely to lose its cool. But if it does keep cool, I really think matter won't be looking good for Lincoln... and a negotiated resolution looks ever more likely.)
 
Perhaps I misunderstand you here, but... are you claiming the Southern states weren't historically engaged in export? Because they were. The Southern states had rapidly evolved into the free trade advocates, while the North wanted more protectionist policies. That, in fact, had been the background for initial north versus south divisions, before slavery even became a real point of contention.

No I am claiming that the CSA embargoed the export of cotton of its own free will. Cotton is King, everyone will come to our aid because cotton is a necessity ( leaving aside the next largest source is a British Monopoly ( India) and the one after that is carried in British Shipping ( Egypt). And that there are a years stocks.

But for the time being, the CSA is not under US control, and considers itself an independent nation unbound by tarriffs. To make a very accurate comparison: the policies of Lincoln mean as much to the South upon its secession as the policies of king George did the USA on July 5th, 1776. What the North cares to require or demand means nothing to them.

What the CSA considers itself to be is irrelevant. As far as the rest of the world is concerned its a collection of provinces in rebellion against the lawful and recognised government of the USA. The CSA may regard US policies as irrelevant the UK does not, they are the legal policies of a friendly government. People who disobey those policies are smugglers and criminals.

This is different from a Blockade - a Blockade by the USA grants those rebellious province the rights of belligerents and also allows for a blockade runner to be seized as a prize.

http://www.nytimes.com/1861/08/27/n...ion-of-the-entire-subject.html?pagewanted=all

that gives a contemporary US view.

Now if the South refuses to take military action the US government is perfectly capable of directing all trade to go into specified ports in the US ( not hard they are the ones with money) and collecting US revenues on US goods in British Ports provided the UK agrees, and licensing exports. Smugglers may choose to sneak out the odd bale or two but its British Interests to ensure that customs dues are collected so unless they have the proper paper ( forgery is an extraditable offence between the UK and US) it can be seized.

The issue for the much diminished CSA is how long can they tolerate inglorious poverty before firing on a US vessel or committing another act of war. Banditry in Missouri say.

Added to which Sumter is simply the excuse. Lincoln will not negotiate away the Union. he will find an excuse.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
No I am claiming that the CSA embargoed the export of cotton of its own free will. Cotton is King, everyone will come to our aid because cotton is a necessity ( leaving aside the next largest source is a British Monopoly ( India) and the one after that is carried in British Shipping ( Egypt). And that there are a years stocks.

Obviouly, this whole scenario is based on Confederate strategy being fundamentally different. I have granted that such a different strategy isn't the most likely option-- yet this thread is about a negotiated resolution, and as such I am taking a different strategy as a premise. While not the most likely chain of events, none of it is ASB. Now, what you are assuming is that even with that fundamentally different strategy, the CSA would carry out OTL policies that run counter to it. That would certainly not be the case.


What the CSA considers itself to be is irrelevant. As far as the rest of the world is concerned its a collection of provinces in rebellion against the lawful and recognised government of the USA. The CSA may regard US policies as irrelevant the UK does not, they are the legal policies of a friendly government. People who disobey those policies are smugglers and criminals.

I have explained in some detail why that would not be the British or French view:

At this point, there are two conflicting claims regarding the status of the CSA. Battle has not yet erupted. Legally, as far as foreign powers are concerned, the CSA is a political entity, although not a country as yet. It's in limbo, so to speak. Unlike in OTL, there is no war yet. Negotiation, possibly with arbitration, is still in the cards. For foreign powers to accept the Union navy's power to tax their vessels when trading with Southern ports would mean that they accept that the Union is right. It means choosing a side.

Trading with the CSA, contrarily, implies no such thing. You can trade with anyone. To choose their side, you'd have to recognise them as a country. Foreign powers are, as yet, doing no such thing. This is why Britain, France and all the rest of the world will most certainly refuse to accept mr. Lincoln's ambitious plans of boarding their vessels. If he tries, he is at war. And he knows it. OTL's Trent Affair proves that he might 'test the waters', but will back down when war threatens. Which it will. This in turn means that he can only board and tax Confederate vessels. The Confederates will understand that, no doubt. They will no doubt do their utmost to make deals with foreign merchants, so those will make their foreign vessels available for the purposes of trade between the Confederacy and the world at large.

(The above also illustrates exactly why this altered Confederate strategy will logically not include a hare-brained "We'll hold the world cotton supply ransom, muhahahahaha!" element.)



As I mentioned before, the US view is meaningless to both the CSA and to foreign powers. Trading with the CSA does not imply recognising it or choosing its side; obeying US demands does imply choosing its side. Until there are active hostilities and the certain-to-follow blockade, foreign powers will eagerly trade with the CSA and will absolutely not recognise the Union's claimed 'right' to tax or otherwise levy that trade.

Your belief seems to be that because the Union held a certain view, that view is the truth, and everyone would automatically accept it as such. That was simply not the case.


Now if the South refuses to take military action the US government is perfectly capable of directing all trade to go into specified ports in the US ( not hard they are the ones with money) and collecting US revenues on US goods in British Ports provided the UK agrees, and licensing exports.

I'm glad you admit that British acquiescence would be required. What I'm trying to explain, however, is that such acquiescence will not be rendered. As soon as actual hostilities commence, and a blockade is laid down as a war measure, Britain will pull back and remain neutral. At that point we get to this stuation:

Smugglers may choose to sneak out the odd bale or two but its British Interests to ensure that customs dues are collected so unless they have the proper paper ( forgery is an extraditable offence between the UK and US) it can be seized.

...but until that point, Britain will do the only thing that is sensible in light of British interests. That is: trade with the CSA without paying pesky tarriffs, and making it damn clear that any attempt to coerce British vessels will be grounds for war. Other powers will take similar stances. So it will not be the CSA that is "much diminished" or suffering "inglorious poverty". In fact, the CSA will be sitting comfortably, suffering only the occasionally seized ship, while foreign ships - the vast majority - go unmolested. All the while, they deplore mr. Lincoln's aggression, offer to submit to arbitration, etc. etc. -- all while the USA, in fact, slips into economic turmoil.

Whatever "excuse" Lincoln wants, the South won't give him one. Congress won't give him an army, if only because it's evident that if the US goes to war, the Upper South will also secede. Opposition to this "senseless crisis" will be on the rise. By now, foreign powers will be offering to mediate. Lincoln isn't a dictator. He can't just command a war to happen. Sooner or later - and it'll be sooner - he will simply be forced to the negotiation table. At least that way, the USA can contain the number of seceded states and get some nice concessions, reparations etc. It'll be looking a lot better than the alternative.
 
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