American Canada

In the scenario were the US is in possession of upper and lower Canada after the ARW, how does Canada develop in the US?

Would French Canadians start as a founding state or be a territory?
Who would there initial governors and senators be?
Would the British sell Rupertsland at some point?
 
How does Canada join the American Revolution? That is goin got be a major part of what they do.

Are they occupied by an American invasion force?
Is is a diplomatic venture? Forgive me for not remembering the exact details, but I'm pretty sure there was an OTL there was an American delegation sent to Canada. After brazenly insulting the French Canadians they left.
 
How does Canada join the American Revolution? That is goin got be a major part of what they do.

Are they occupied by an American invasion force?
Is is a diplomatic venture? Forgive me for not remembering the exact details, but I'm pretty sure there was an OTL there was an American delegation sent to Canada. After brazenly insulting the French Canadians they left.
Let's say that the Americans perform better during the attack on Quebec City. Maybe Montgomery isn't killed. They successfully take the city and keep it till the end of the war.
 
This isn't a everything OTL except add Canada scenario. IF you have a successful Quebec Campaign, now you have to pacify the French Canadians, who didn't want to join the revolution. The Patriots are not occupying a resistant Canada, so compromises/promises are going to be made. With no Quebec/Montreal, Burgoyne isn't going to be trekking south through New York, so no Battle of Saratoga.

But, if we do, presto magic, arrive at a similar result as OTL, except add parts of Canada (I'm guessing Britain retains the maritime provinces), now you have a changed political situation. France didn't want Canada back, but the French Canadians might prefer to return to the French fold over being part of USA. Inclusion of French Canada into a very fragile political situation may very well upset the apple cart. Lower 13 will is NOT going to be forced upon any region with a sizable French Canadian population. What emerges from the revolution is going to be different, and develop differently, than OTL. French Canadians will demand representation.

Where does the loyalist migration go to? If they have no place to go, there may be friction.

To get to OTL, plus, it is far more likely, and easily doable, to simply add everything west of Montreal. Britain was willing to concede it, but USA delegates didn't press for it. That region becomes a territory.
 
In my opinion, then there probably would be a Canadian state, but it wouldn't be a French Canadian state. It would be a largely disenfranchised (possibly just threw peer pressure) majority governed by an imported American minority.

French Canadians could theoretically get involved in the government because there would be no legal barriers, but as long as they were Catholic and had a French accent chances would be next to none.

One of the big caused for the ARW that is often forgot about was the Quebec Act. There was also a debate in the early US if Catholics actually counted as being under religious freedom, and that was when there were very very few of them.

More things would need to be developed about the scenario to be more accurate.

It's not an easy period to research but if you look up French Canadian immigrants in New England that might give you some ideas.
 
This isn't a everything OTL except add Canada scenario. IF you have a successful Quebec Campaign, now you have to pacify the French Canadians, who didn't want to join the revolution. The Patriots are not occupying a resistant Canada, so compromises/promises are going to be made. With no Quebec/Montreal, Burgoyne isn't going to be trekking south through New York, so no Battle of Saratoga.

But, if we do, presto magic, arrive at a similar result as OTL, except add parts of Canada (I'm guessing Britain retains the maritime provinces), now you have a changed political situation. France didn't want Canada back, but the French Canadians might prefer to return to the French fold over being part of USA. Inclusion of French Canada into a very fragile political situation may very well upset the apple cart. Lower 13 will is NOT going to be forced upon any region with a sizable French Canadian population. What emerges from the revolution is going to be different, and develop differently, than OTL. French Canadians will demand representation.

Where does the loyalist migration go to? If they have no place to go, there may be friction.

To get to OTL, plus, it is far more likely, and easily doable, to simply add everything west of Montreal. Britain was willing to concede it, but USA delegates didn't press for it. That region becomes a territory.
What do you mean by everything west of Montreal?
 
So Ontario. This does make rather interesting subsequent developments on the Continent. Is Britain holding forts along the Great Lakes if the U.S. controls both shores? Does a francophone (Lower) Canada eventually rebel against British rule?
Much of the northern part of Ontario would still be firmly British. Depending on how the USA victory shakes out, you could see some of the southwestern part of the province be given to USA. I doubt they leave the western border undefined.

With this ATL, I'd guess you get more or less OTL type scenario, just more land in the USA. So, British would be slow to move out of the old Northwest. Something would have to change to get French Canada to rebel against Britain. OTL, Britain more or less gave upper Canada to immigrating loyalists, so doubtful giving it to the Patriots will stir up additional animosity. Rebelling isn't going to get the lost land back in ATL. Rebelling was more likely to achieve that in OTL. So, unless Britain increases aggravating the French speakers from OTL, there'll be no additional rebellion.
 
How does this affect the development of the rest of the British Empire? In EBR’s Separated at Birth there is earlier expansion along the Indian Ocean incl Africa and the East Indies
 
Much of the northern part of Ontario would still be firmly British. Depending on how the USA victory shakes out, you could see some of the southwestern part of the province be given to USA. I doubt they leave the western border undefined.

With this ATL, I'd guess you get more or less OTL type scenario, just more land in the USA. So, British would be slow to move out of the old Northwest. Something would have to change to get French Canada to rebel against Britain. OTL, Britain more or less gave upper Canada to immigrating loyalists, so doubtful giving it to the Patriots will stir up additional animosity. Rebelling isn't going to get the lost land back in ATL. Rebelling was more likely to achieve that in OTL. So, unless Britain increases aggravating the French speakers from OTL, there'll be no additional rebellion.
You don't see United Empire Loyalists setting in greater numbers east of the St. Lawrence in this timeline?
 
You don't see United Empire Loyalists setting in greater numbers east of the St. Lawrence in this timeline?
There would be greater numbers, but OTL, there was a sizable migration to non upper Canada regions of Canada and around the British Empire. As long as the French weren't displaced outright, or persecuted, or lose their special privilege, I doubt they rebel. The maritime provinces are firmly British. To the west are the USAmericans. They'll only have a relatively small region of Montreal to Quebec, and have enemies surrounding them. Unless really pushed, they'll be content under the British flag. This doesn't mean they won't get pushed, but there's little in it for Britain to do so.
 
There would be greater numbers, but OTL, there was a sizable migration to non upper Canada regions of Canada and around the British Empire. As long as the French weren't displaced outright, or persecuted, or lose their special privilege, I doubt they rebel. The maritime provinces are firmly British. To the west are the USAmericans. They'll only have a relatively small region of Montreal to Quebec, and have enemies surrounding them. Unless really pushed, they'll be content under the British flag. This doesn't mean they won't get pushed, but there's little in it for Britain to do so.
And who ends up in due course with the HBC lands?
 
And who ends up in due course with the HBC lands?
It is either USA or Canada. We can't know the course of Canadian history, but OTL dominion status can be seen as plausible, if not likely. Britain preferred the sale of Rupert's Land to Canada, and put pressure on HBC. No reason to think OTL is not on track to happen.

Should the OP scenario happen, and USA includes Quebec/Montreal, and if USA survives all this, USA would have the inside track to purchase.
 
Newfoundland and the Hudson Bay Company areas are out of reach of the Patriots. There was some interest in detaching Nova Scotia from the Empire, and there was the invasion of Quebec. The British are not going to try to claim what became Ontario if the Patriots both successfully invade Quebec and hold it against any counter attacks.

None of this affects what became British Columbia. Also, IOTL the British had a very small garrison in Quebec, but heavily reinforced it, and the reinforcements became the basis for Burgoyne's army. If they lose Quebec city in 1775 or early 1776, and don't try to retake it, those reinforcements go someplace else. This still changes the course of the war, and the Treaty of Paris will be changed in other ways. The British may wind up keeping a few southern colonies.

A USA that has conquered Quebec can integrate it fine. They had no problems with New York, which was still half Dutch. They managed with New Orleans and Hawaii later. Catholicism would be a problem, but the USA absorbed a ton of Catholic immigrants.

Quebec, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick become states. I'm not sure about Prince Edward Island. The area between the Ottawa River and the Rockies is divided up into territories and later states. None of these will be slave states, so you have a situation where there are more free states than slave states well before the Missouri compromise. This starts producing butterflies affecting early 19th century politics very early.

The War of 1812 is butterflied away. The only reason to fight it is the impressment issue, which was actually settled diplomatically before the war. There is a very good chance the Mexican-American war is butterflied as well. Slave states don't have as much influence within the wider USA ITTL, so that goes differently. Some slave states may secede earlier, and the rest of the country, which now includes most of Canada, does nothing to stop them. Some might accept that that slavery is out of place in a wider confederation, and abolish slavery itself state by state, slowly, only asking for some sort of compensation from the federal government.

The parts of what are now Canada obviously get Amercanized, even Quebec to some extent, with the institutional and cultural British influence just not being there. Immigration patters will also change.
 
Does the loss of Canada result in greater British immigration to Australia and the Cape? Also, does Oregon Territory become divided along 49N?
 
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Also what are some of the wider implications of:
  • No Mexican cession?
  • Parts of the South under British rule
  • Compensation of slavery in place of a Civil War
  • Newfoundland, BC and Hudsonia eventually becoming American “hats” due to geography and demographics but also maintaning stronger ties to Britain for fear of absorption
  • Effects on Russian Alaska
 
This is one of those topics that really needs a more clearly delineated POD given the broad implications of its varied iterations.
 

Lusitania

Donor
we had this discussion in past and you are not providing any detail except you are waving a magic wand and trying to say the US will be exactly the same with the addition of upper and lower Canada. But that is impossible the inclusion of Canada in the constitutional discussions will change the constitution. Will we even have a constitution or only articles of Conferderation. Or is the US going to be an occupier and occupy and shove English and Protestantism down the poor ignorant papists?

You see either French Canada is a willing participant and their needs satisfied in the constitution or they are occupied by the "liberators".
 
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