American Army without Vietnam: doctrine, equipment, training, recruitment, deployments, ect...

Basically, what does the American Army look like without the Vietnam War eating up its attention and funding.

Does it remain a conscript army? Does the M60 Paton still go un-replaced until the 80s? Which issues encountered during the Vietnam War were merely revealed by the conflict as opposed to caused by its peculiarities?
 
The US Army went onto Korea a mess and came out in reasonable shape. The Army went in to Vietnam in good shape and came out a mess. Without Vietnam, there's no reason to end the draft You don't get the same spur to air mobile. Potentially, you get faster tank innovation. Bigger changes that will be lost are in aircraft design and philosophy.
 
For aircraft, you wouldn't have the AC-47/AC-130 concept and the idea of "missiles instead of cannon's" was disproven and would have still been part of USAF doctrine. I always wondered if GPS would have been required and invested in since the Navy already had the Transit system and the USAF wouldn't have found the need for GPS and all-weather GPS-aided munitions...instead would have stuck with the laser-guided technology.
 
For aircraft, you wouldn't have the AC-47/AC-130 concept and the idea of "missiles instead of cannon's" was disproven and would have still been part of USAF doctrine. I always wondered if GPS would have been required and invested in since the Navy already had the Transit system and the USAF wouldn't have found the need for GPS and all-weather GPS-aided munitions...instead would have stuck with the laser-guided technology.
The "cannon was still important"-meme was largely wrong anyway even in the context of Vietnam. The Navy achieved much better results than the AF through improved training procedures and better missiles.
Basically, what does the American Army look like without the Vietnam War eating up its attention and funding.

Does it remain a conscript army? Does the M60 Paton still go un-replaced until the 80s? Which issues encountered during the Vietnam War were merely revealed by the conflict as opposed to caused by its peculiarities?
The draft would probably not be that big of an issue in the first place, but yes, the studies into professional armies probably don't happen yet. No changes for M60, the only potential benefit of note is that money may go in Shillelagh upgrades and fixes with more reliable electronics, a better reputation for the M551 (if it is mainly fielded in A1 form) and earlier M48s with 105 as Vietnam cancelled the 105 in the second batch of M48A3s.
The US Army went onto Korea a mess and came out in reasonable shape. The Army went in to Vietnam in good shape and came out a mess. Without Vietnam, there's no reason to end the draft You don't get the same spur to air mobile. Potentially, you get faster tank innovation. Bigger changes that will be lost are in aircraft design and philosophy.
Air mobility studies preceded Vietnam, but you'd probably see smaller helicopter fleets without the need to move so many men. Probably better in hindsight as the expenses of the huge Huey fleet delayed a replacement. Don't think much of value was lost for aircrafts, they would have got better lessons from the Arab-Israeli wars and other conflicts of the period. Most trends were set prewar.
 

marathag

Banned
For aircraft, you wouldn't have the AC-47/AC-130 concept and the idea of "missiles instead of cannon's" was disproven and would have still been part of USAF doctrine. I always wondered if GPS would have been required and invested in since the Navy already had the Transit system and the USAF wouldn't have found the need for GPS and all-weather GPS-aided munitions...instead would have stuck with the laser-guided technology.
The AC-47 was very early in the COIN game, before it was the official 'Not a War' military operation.
GPS was coming, as an additional input for the existing 1958 onwards systems with Inertial Navigation systems, Boomers, Bombers and ICBMs.
 
The AC-47 was very early in the COIN game, before it was the official 'Not a War' military operation.
GPS was coming, as an additional input for the existing 1958 onwards systems with Inertial Navigation systems, Boomers, Bombers and ICBMs.
I can guarantee you that the AC-47 wouldn't have gotten any further funding after the development in 1964 without the testing in Vietnam. At the time, the USAF was starting the transition from the "Bomber Pilot" leadership of SAC to the Fighter Mafia. The Bomber Pilot leadership of the USAF ended because of Vietnam and how the USAF handled the TDY of SAC bombers over to Vietnam (crews not getting medals or OER's) while the Fighter Mafia took over and was instrumental in transforming the force into a "pointy nose" dominated Service with concentration on guided munitions.

Regarding GPS, no way it gets funded due to the cost. The Navy used Transit and that was good enough for the 2D Navy vessels and subs. INS is king for the systems you mentioned. Read about Brad Parkinson (1st USAF Colonel in charge of the program office) and how much trouble he had in the 70s to just get the 1st 11 test satellites launched starting in 1978 and you will realize without the KAL-shoot down and the Reagan requirement for GPS, you wouldn't have a system that didn't start launching operational satellites until 1989 (yes, 11 years from the 1st test satellite).
 
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marathag

Banned
I can guarantee you that the AC-47 wouldn't have gotten any further funding after the development in 1964 without the testing in Vietnam.
<snip>
The guys behind what became Spooky started when there were just advisors in Vietnam, and looking for a cheap support craft to assist ARVN bases.
Even without a US entry after the Gulf of Tonkin, those raids would still be ongoing.
Regarding GPS, no way it gets funded due to the cost. The Navy used Transit and that was good enough for the 2D Navy vessels and subs. INS is king for the systems you mentioned.
USAF didn't care what Navy was doing, and started MOSAIC, as TRANSIT didn't update fast enough for flying.
Cost? Satellite lofting was getting cheap with Atlas and Titan. WWIII was expensive, and GPS was an aid in fighting that conflict.
Vietnam was a COIN and Conventional War distraction to the main event, the USA v. USSR throwdown.
 
Maby the f-14 becomes both a navy and airforce plane sense f-X didn't become so air to air focused into after the air mafi gaines control. Hell boyd was convinced that if he hadn't pushed for the f--15 to be soild wing that congress would have forced the the f-14 on the usaf anyway. Hell without yankee station kent Lee probably doesn't become vice Admiral of navair and therefore the head of the f-18 hornet faction in the navy. At that point the f-16 probably only survives because congress dosnt want every plane in service being from grumman.
 
You don't have the "hollow army" of the seventies. So many experienced officers and NCO retired early or resigned because of the pointlessness of the war. The epidemic of drug use doesn't happen.

Do you have racial gangs in the ranks? Maybe not as bad. Without the influence of the New Left culture (which would certainly lag behind OTL with no war protesting to fuel its efforts) there might not be so much.
 
The "cannon was still important"-meme was largely wrong anyway even in the context of Vietnam.

Having a gun WAS still important but that's not clear without Vietnam as the trend was even more towards missiles. Kind of a reason the F-4 did not have a gun initially.

The Navy achieved much better results than the AF through improved training procedures and better missiles.

But without Vietnam this doesn't come to the fore and future conflicts that are not directly involving the US will (as they were OTL) downgraded as less important BECAUSE the US wasn't involved.

And actually it's worse for the Air Force than the Army since we learned how much of our 'stuff' wasn't really as good as we thought it was. The US's ECM/ECCM equipment and practices at the start of the involvement in Vietnam were literally crap and the US got knocked back on it's heels when it started facing actual Soviet equipment. A huge reason the newer 'teen' series of combat aircraft were designed the way they were was from lessons learned in Vietnam and without that the trend will remain heavy missiles armament and dogfighting is a thing of the past.

The draft would probably not be that big of an issue in the first place, but yes, the studies into professional armies probably don't happen yet.

In the period right before US involvement began to ramp up actual deferment opportunities were being increased as the services felt that current force levels were 'sufficient' to fight WWIII as any 'conventional' action would simply be the 'start' of any future conflict. While the military under Kennedy and Johnson was a bit more 'balanced' it was still leaning towards and aimed at fighting a nuclear rather than conventional war. Vietnam OTL actually reversed this trend so without it then it's likely the conventional forces will end up being degraded.

I can guarantee you that the AC-47 wouldn't have gotten any further funding after the development in 1964 without the testing in Vietnam.
<snip>
The guys behind what became Spooky started when there were just advisors in Vietnam, and looking for a cheap support craft to assist ARVN bases.
Even without a US entry after the Gulf of Tonkin, those raids would still be ongoing.

And it was 'cheap' to build and operate for that kind of operation which was a major point it got funded and developed OTL anyway. It would not, however probably evolve into something like the AC-130 since it was (and would be TTL) not considered a usable "US" asset. Great for conflict the US won't lower itself to fight but nothing the US wants. So likely TTL it's a dead end.

At the time, the USAF was starting the transition from the "Bomber Pilot" leadership of SAC to the Fighter Mafia. The Bomber Pilot leadership of the USAF ended because of Vietnam and how the USAF handled the TDY of SAC bombers over to Vietnam (crews not getting medals or OER's) while the Fighter Mafia took over and was instrumental in transforming the force into a "pointy nose" dominated Service with concentration on guided munitions.

It was less Vietnam that brought that change,(though it helped a lot due to the combat time differences) but that the "Bomber Mafia" leadership was aging out of the command structure. The problem TTL is that with less focus on fighter tactics and ground support missions which rose dramatically OTL due to Vietnam in TTL the SAC mission is still going to the priority and TAC likely never gets as big and important, (due again to those inflated combat times which drove promotion OTL) enough to fully displace the Bomber Mafia with the Fighter Mafia leadership.

As for guided munitions it was accelerated by Vietnam but the pressure was already there since it was thought that in a 'real' war that anything that flew was dead so even bombers were going to need stand-off and actual precision (guided) weapons to be effective. It will be a LOT slower development though.

Regarding GPS, no way it gets funded due to the cost. The Navy used Transit and that was good enough for the 2D Navy vessels and subs. INS is king for the systems you mentioned. Read about Brad Parkinson (1st USAF Colonel in charge of the program office) and how much trouble he had in the 70s to just get the 1st 11 test satellites launched starting in 1978 and you will realize without the KAL-shoot down and the Reagan requirement for GPS, you wouldn't have a system that didn't start launching operational satellites until 1989 (yes, 11 years from the 1st test satellite).
USAF didn't care what Navy was doing, and started MOSAIC, as TRANSIT didn't update fast enough for flying.
Cost? Satellite lofting was getting cheap with Atlas and Titan. WWIII was expensive, and GPS was an aid in fighting that conflict.
Vietnam was a COIN and Conventional War distraction to the main event, the USA v. USSR throwdown.

In this case the Bomber Mafia was also facing issues of the need for more accurate weapons due to the increasing need for "stand off " weapons up to and including possible airborne ICBM's so they needed a positioning and navigation system that was vastly more accurate than INS and as noted TRANSIT wasn't going to cut it. That being said tactical and long distance navigation were having issues prior to Vietnam and that only accelerated with US involvement but the incentive was there already. Keep in mind that GPS wasn't initially actually about or for "weapons" guidance but for delivery platform guidance. In other words they wanted a more accurate PLATFORM be it bomber, fighter bomber or ICBM rather than a more accurate weapon.

And I'd love to read up on Col. Parkinson but to keep it in context anything that was NOT a platform or specific weapons system was lower priority in the 70s because of the nature of the of OTL's post-Vietnam budget. Without Vietnam priorities and budgets change so it's likely that GPS is given a HIGHER not lower priority given it's long range navigational advantages.

Maby the f-14 becomes both a navy and airforce plane sense f-X didn't become so air to air focused into after the air mafi gaines control. Hell boyd was convinced that if he hadn't pushed for the f--15 to be soild wing that congress would have forced the the f-14 on the usaf anyway. Hell without yankee station kent Lee probably doesn't become vice Admiral of navair and therefore the head of the f-18 hornet faction in the navy. At that point the f-16 probably only survives because congress dosnt want every plane in service being from grumman.

I'd wonder if without Vietnam you'd even see the 'teens' developed given the circumstances. Part of the reason for the entire "F-X" concept was to build another "multi-service" aircraft to cut down on the number of aviation manufacturers in the US due to what was seen as an over-saturation of the the market. The "F-X" was supposed to serve beside the F-4 in both Air Force and Naval use a big missile armed platform makes more sense given the paradigm of the time. Hence you're more likely to actually see a Naval version of the F-111 than the F-14 and more refinements to the F-4 than getting the F-15 or F-16.

Randy
 

Riain

Banned
What was US defense policy at the time? I know that British Commonwealth defence policy changed from re-fighting WW2 with nukes thrown in to deterring WW3 with thermonuclear weapons and tripwire conventional forces and fighting 'limited wars' around the world from 1957-58.

I assume that the US was thinking along similar lines, they tried the 'pentomic' division structure designed to fight in nuclear wars but dropped it from 1961 as part of Flexible Response. I think it is inevitable that while the thinking was around limited wars army development would move in that direction to a degree.
 
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I'd wonder if without Vietnam you'd even see the 'teens' developed given the circumstances. Part of the reason for the entire "F-X" concept was to build another "multi-service" aircraft to cut down on the number of aviation manufacturers in the US due to what was seen as an over-saturation of the the market. The "F-X" was supposed to serve beside the F-4 in both Air Force and Naval use a big missile armed platform makes more sense given the paradigm of the time. Hence you're more likely to actually see a Naval version of the F-111 than the F-14 and more refinements to the F-4 than getting the F-15 or F-16.

Randy
I doubt the f-111 mainly because they already tried that and it failed miserably, Nothing to do with vetnam ithere. But the usaf was going to get new planes because the ussr was getting new planes im gust not sure congress would let the usaf have the F-X as it was originally designed when the f-14 basically fits the bill. And without the competition from the f-15 or f-18 the price might comdown enough for the f-16 not be seen as needed although having only one company biulding every fighter for the us sounds like a bad idea even if it is grumman. Maybe it would start out as like a f-16xl instead?
 
Air mobility studies preceded Vietnam, but you'd probably see smaller helicopter fleets without the need to move so many men. Probably better in hindsight as the expenses of the huge Huey fleet delayed a replacement. Don't think much of value was lost for aircrafts, they would have got better lessons from the Arab-Israeli wars and other conflicts of the period. Most trends were set prewar.
Korea proved the important of air mobility. We can also moved down further to 1944-45, when early helicopters such as the Sikorsky R-4 were used in the China-India-Burma theater of WWII in rescuing downed pilots and also in the Liberation of the Philippines.
The AC-47 was very early in the COIN game, before it was the official 'Not a War' military operation.
As a Filipino, I have read the AC-47 was extensively used by the Philippine Air Force against the Huks, along with the P-51 Mustang.

Without the Vietnam War, perhaps the AC-47 would remain as the primary CAS aircraft until the equivalent of the A-10 can be produced. The threat of Soviet tanks crossing into West Germany was still around, regardless if the Vietnam War occurs or not.
 
I doubt the f-111 mainly because they already tried that and it failed miserably, Nothing to do with Vietnam there. But the usaf was going to get new planes because the ussr was getting new planes im just not sure congress would let the usaf have the F-X as it was originally designed when the f-14 basically fits the bill. And without the competition from the f-15 or f-18 the price might comedown enough for the f-16 not be seen as needed although having only one company building every fighter for the us sounds like a bad idea even if it is grumman. Maybe it would start out as like a f-16xl instead?

The problem though is that to get the F-14 you need Vietnam anyway because it was based on the Navy lessons being learned there just like getting the F-X (F-15) required the same drivers. The original F-X requirement and concept was essentially a lighter, slightly more capable F-111 made heavier due to the included Navy specifications for a heavier armament load. What drove the changed performance specifications that lead to the F-14 and then F-15 was experience and feedback from Vietnam.

In fact without the actual on-going experience in Vietnam the Navy has less of a leg to stand on in Congress with rejecting the F-111B and getting a separate development program supported.

And the F-14 never actually 'fit the bill' for the F-X requirements as presented and certainly not as was modified to arrive at the F-15. Again though without the experience of air combat in Vietnam and the prevailing attitude in Congress and the White House is still going to lean to a single solution for both services which will satisfy none. (And that includes proposals to simply invest in a Phantom III :) )

Does McNamara still do his systems driven overhaul without the war? If he does, what's the long term outcome?

Likely as it was initiated as a cost savings measure to try and keep escalating defense spending under control. Due to the policy change of a more 'balanced' force and ongoing major development programs such as SSBN and ICBM development and deployment, defense costs had bloomed and the idea was to streamline the process' and eliminate duplication and waste. Hence the number of 'joint' weapons programs and multi-service equipment systems to try and cut down on costs. This went out the window with Vietnam but the idea had already run into both resistance from the services, (see above about the Navy and the F-111B) but also because there were actually differences in the services needs and requirements that could not be adequately met with a single systems. (Such as the Navy's desired "fleet defender" and Air Force interceptor and ground support requirements) But early on the idea looked like it could work and save effort and money and it had Congressional, Administration, Industrial and even some DoD support.

The F-4 was a good example of what the overhaul wanted but also an example of why the idea had problems. The F-4 was in fact very close the needs of all the services for a general purpose aircraft but it wasn't actually really suitable for some of the more 'point' requirements and had to be modified to fit the different roles of the different services. As noted above it could not fit the Navy's required "fleet defender" role for long range defense which required a large radar and large, long range missiles. It had problems with being an interceptor and dog fighter because it lacked some performance, and it had issues with ground attack. But none of those requirements were seen as a problem since doctrine and practice wise these were not seen as a problem.
Vietnam was to prove that these WERE actually problems and that the services "requirements" were indeed sufficient as to require different aircraft to address but without that direct and clear experience it's going to be very much harder to make that argument

So long term the 'trend' would likely continue rather than change.

would this include Project 100,000?

That was literally in response to the increasing requirements for Vietnam so I would guess no :)

Korea proved the important of air mobility. We can also moved down further to 1944-45, when early helicopters such as the Sikorsky R-4 were used in the China-India-Burma theater of WWII in rescuing downed pilots and also in the Liberation of the Philippines.

Air mobility was one thing but it was the actual doctrine of use that changed due to Vietnam. Whereas helicopter mobility to move men and equipment was part of the doctrine it was in support of the 'standard' field unit as a way of enhancing moving reserves and special units. This changed with Vietnam to become a doctrine in and of itself of Air Mobile Assault where the objective was no longer to take and hold a position but to assault enemy forces and then leave to take them on again somewhere else. (Mind you this wasn't/isn't a 'new' doctrine as there's a reason they are called "Air Cavalry" after all :) )

But in the context of the conflict that was actually being planned (US-vs-USSR) at the time this wasn't ever going to be as large or complex as it got during Vietnam. It was planned to be an additive not an actual method in and of itself. A lot of this was because it was assumed (and proved out in Vietnam really) that any actual mass movement of men by helicopter would be vulnerable to opposing air power and ground anti-air capability. Which is why it was only really used in large scale in the South and places where the US could gain and hold air-superiority and keep the ground reasonably secure.

In context I'd assume the doctrine and methods will still evolve but they will remain additive and supportive to more standard methods (ground transport and air drop) of deploying into battle.

Without the Vietnam War, perhaps the AC-47 would remain as the primary CAS aircraft until the equivalent of the A-10 can be produced. The threat of Soviet tanks crossing into West Germany was still around, regardless if the Vietnam War occurs or not.

But the AC-47 has no role in such a conflict as it can't actually be a "CAS" asset in even a near-peer battle environment. (Heck the modern AC-130 has issues unless you have air superiority and a reasonably low MANPAD threat) It was made to counter and assist with a certain threat and without Vietnam isn't likely to see a lot of development unless the US gets involved with a different COIN situation.

Randy
 
The problem though is that to get the F-14 you need Vietnam anyway because it was based on the Navy lessons being learned there just like getting the F-X (F-15) required the same drivers. The original F-X requirement and concept was essentially a lighter, slightly more capable F-111 made heavier due to the included Navy specifications for a heavier armament load. What drove the changed performance specifications that lead to the F-14 and then F-15 was experience and feedback from Vietnam.
I was told that F-14s were made to counter Soviet bombers in the North Atlantic and the Mediterranean. So even without the Vietnam War, the F-14 would be made. It would fly alongside the F-4 aboard carriers.
 
I was told that F-14s were made to counter Soviet bombers in the North Atlantic and the Mediterranean. So even without the Vietnam War, the F-14 would be made. It would fly alongside the F-4 aboard carriers.

The "F-14" requirement was aimed at countering the Soviet long range missile threat in all theaters really and was originally going to be fulfilled by the subsonic. straight winged "Missileer" concept but that was felt to have no combat capability once it's long range missiles were expended. (True actually) The Navy then wanted something capable of still defending itself and the fleet when it's long range missiles were gone but could also still carry the massive radar and long-range (the "Eagle" at the time which later morphed into the "Phoenix") radar and missile to intercept those launch platforms before they got into range to launch.

The argument though that this had to be an air borne platform or that said platform had to have combat capability beyond just being able to launch and direct those long-range missiles was weak at best. OTL the 'argument' that clinched the deal was in fact directly based on the experience of Vietnam, no Vietnam experience to provide that 'proof' and the argument is still open on what the best approach is. The original argument against using the Phantom was the original size and power of the needed radar and the limited number of such big missiles the Phantom could carry. All arguments that were countered by advancing technology, though this was still unclear at the time. Worse shipboard anti-aircraft missile systems were also advancing rapidly so the argument that you needed to base fleet defense on aircraft in the first place was a lot weaker at the time.

Not to put too fine a point on it but the "F-14" design wasn't even that well liked in the Navy until it was well into service since it was considered over-sized and low performance in comparison to the F-15 let alone the F-16. Keep in mind the 'requirement' that led to the design was simply to carry at least four (4) of the big missiles and then be able to avoid getting killed once they were gone long enough to get back to the carrier and get rearmed. This changed 'slightly' with the experience in Vietnam but the design was still a very specialized type which then still required several upgrades and modifications to finally became a 'credible' air-to-air fighter. Meanwhile the Air Force requirement for the F-X was a fully capable multi-role fighter right from the start. While not big enough to carry the radar and missiles of the Navy "fleet defender" role it was to be more than big enough and have enough performance margin to hold it's own against upcoming Soviet fighters and to support ground attack roles. Neither aircraft was initially expected or designed to engage in turning, dog-fight combat because that was 'obsolete'. Instead they would fire off their long range missiles and the Navy jet would only use it's short range missiles to ensure it could run back to the carrier to get rearmed. Meanwhile the Air Force jet was designed to engage with long range missiles and then either engage with shorter range missiles or drop bombs before also running for home.

So only the Navy "needed" that huge radar and those huge missiles and their 'justification' was rather weak at best, meanwhile both the Navy and the Air Force still needed a multi-role fighter-bomber type aircraft and the Phantom is right there already. Like it or not, (and frankly the Navy didn't with somewhat good reason but not really good justification) the Navy's "Fleet Defender" requirement without Vietnam experience ends up looking like sucking it up and accepting the F-111B is the cheaper and more straight forward option. And the argument that the Air Force already has them makes it even more compelling.

There's really no getting around the basic fact that without the experience and lessons learned in the air war in Vietnam the general and specific justifications for almost ANY of the "teens" series of fighters is a LOT less clear and arguably even if any of them get built it's likely they are VERY different aircraft.

Randy
 
I should probably point out that I don't LIKE the idea of McNamara getting a broader and deeper 'hold' on DoD policy, (I actually love the "teens" :) ) but it was pretty hard to argue against the policies and planning because prior to Vietnam's "reality check" most of the US design and procurement process were specifically and only aimed at fighting a peer-adversary (the USSR) and was aimed/optimized for doing just that. (And pretty much ONLY that to be honest :) )

So you get the F-4, the F-111, the M60, M113, M155 et-al because those are what 'fit' the doctrine and planning of the time. And you try and get that all on a budget so you try and ensure that those that 'can' (for an administrative and bureaucratic definition of "can":) ) use the same systems do so to cut costs and spread out production.

Vietnam threw a monkey wrench into that planning because it was a war that the US should have been able to "win" in short order but our entire military was no longer geared to fighting "that kind" of war so we struggled.

Something else to consider is that without Vietnam the US military and more importantly the average US citizen is a LOT less likely to have the late 60s/early 70s "crisis of conscious/faith" that we did OTL which leads to a LOT of down-line butterflies. Without Vietnam would we every get around to questioning our possible competence/capability vis-à-vis the USSR, so it's less likely we reach a point where the "Reagan Revolution" happens. The whole thing loses the majority of it's 'talking points' and rhetoric because we don't have the 'divisiveness' and 'loss' of Vietnam to draw on.

"Counter-culture" and the ensuing backlash to it are more muted because they don't have that "issue" to focus on. This effects everything from Civil Rights to Environmentalism as well as popular culture and everyday life. The era of Vietnam was an era where average Americans had to actually sit down and at least consider our society, our culture and our country and their places in our world and the world around us. The legacy of Vietnam is still moving and shaking US and world events to this very day so ya, it's kind of important in the grand scheme of things :)

Randy
 
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