America with no post-1965 immigration: stronger or weaker?

America with no post-1965 immigration


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People who would not be in America without immigration <snip>
I think America would be a duller place without the people above and the many others who came both famous and not so famous.

During the time of the immigration restrictions, you might note all the foreigners who actually were working in Hollywood. Studio Heads were pretty good at getting the potential Stars in the Country.
 
But you have to understand, that 'British' or 'English' ancestry isn't marked under the U.S. Census, and that isnt mentioning the desire to be considered 'American' as well, so it may well be much higher.
Understand what?
The question, paraphrased, was "Are WASPs even 0,33% of the U.S. population now?".
The answer, elaborated/expanded, was "A conservative estimation, apparently based on
self-identification, suggests a number 21 times that".
The presumably high number of Protestant definable-as-Anglosaxons among those who
identify as of "American ancestry" does not enter into it.

Another quick googling implies that, depending on how you define/use the term, WASP can
also include Dutch, Scots, Scandinavians, Germans, Scotch-Irish and French Huguenots.

And, of course, if you define/use the term as "the traditional Anglo-American upper class"
the actual number is not necessarily relevant (and would still, I've been lead to believe,
include some Dutch and French Huguenot DNA among the otherwise pure
Anglo-Saxon-Danish-Norman-Flemish-Other blood).
 
Which illustrates an important factor. "White" is a moving target that people join as soon as they can, if only because it is the definition of mainstream.
 
Let me reiterate an important fact here: there is no plausible scenario in which there is no post-1965 immigration to the United States--unless there is something like the Great Depression again or another world war. The 1930's were the only decade in US history where there was net emigration from the US. In 1951-60, the last full decade before the 1965 act, there were 3,180,000 net immigrants to the US. See the following table from the Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups, p. 476.

immigration.jpg
 
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People who would not be in America without immigration post 1965.
Arnold Schwarzenegger actor
Anthony Hopkins actor
Sergey Brin google founder
Sundar Pichai google ceo
Arianna Huffington publisher
Michael J. Fox actor
Natalie Portman actor
samantha power politician and author
Charlize Theron actor
jim carrey actor
Salma Hayek actor
Patrick Ewing sportsman
Mariano Rivera sportsman
joni mitchell singer
Melania Trump model
Dikembe Mutombo sportsman
Rupert Murdoch publisher
Jan Koum whatsapp
isabel allende author
elon musk businessman
etc

I think America would be a duller place without the people above and the many others who came both famous and not so famous.
I think "no post-1965 immigration" means the system that existed before the Hart-Celler is left in place. That would mean most Western or Northern Europeans and Canadians would probably still have the opportunity to immigrate, as would many Latin Americans.
 
I think "no post-1965 immigration" means the system that existed before the Hart-Celler is left in place. That would mean most Western or Northern Europeans and Canadians would probably still have the opportunity to immigrate, as would many Latin Americans.

It's not like that opportunity was removed but truthfully most Western Europeans and Canadians are happy with their lives and the high level of development of their own nations that they don't need or want to immigrate to another country.

The majority of people who want to leave their country now are in the developing world it's just how it is. Of course post-WW2 you did have a lot of Europeans who wanted to leave.

As the developing world continues to develop and quality of life improves, the less migrants you will see looking to leave.
 
That's not what I meant. What I meant was that if there had been no more immigration since 1965, then there would be less racial tension in modern America than there is in OTL, since most immigrants since then have been minorities, and there has been a lot of racial tension surrounding that. (for example, Donald Trump)
I feel like that really has nothing to do with immigration at least directly. America had a lot of ethnic tension throughout its history. The assimilation pushed and the much stricter immigration quotas put in place after ww1 eventually lead to most of the pre-1965 immigrant population groups assimilating into America society. By the 80s the people of European immigrant roots were fully assimilated into American society. Before ww1, America was a very multi-ethnic nation but one dominated mostly by the Anglo population. After ww1, they became more nativist and forced more assimilation. This continued until the 65 when they changed the policy but at this point not as many Europeans migrated here anymore. Much of Western Europe was comparable to or even better to live at then the US. Eastern Bloc Europe was restricted from immigrating here in large number. Without the removal of the racial restrictions on immigration in 65 this only left the newly open immigration sources in the Americas, Asia, and Africa to come. These people basically took up the role of that the previous generation immigrants like the Irish and Italians use to have in America society. Now immigration from Asia and Africa can be easily prevented since each have to cross a large ocean here. The US just doesn’t need to let really any of them come here. Now Latin America will be hard to prevent from coming here. Even a US with strict borders is going to get a lot of immigration from Mexico between 1965 to 2008. The only change is a larger amount of illegals. Also a lot of Cubans will still flee from Communist Cuba. Some Haitians will likely still be floating to Florida on makeshift boats.

I would also like to add the racial conflicts in current America have more to do with liberal multiculturalism vs conservative assimilationist and nativist. Many Americans still expect you to either Americanize or Americanize your culture or religion enough to be accepted. Multiculturalist often labels this as racist but I think they that is a bit inaccurate. It is bigoted but most Americans, emphasize most not all, are not racialist in ideology. People often lump all bigotry together but someone who hates foreign cultures but accepts foreigners who assimilate isn’t the same as someone who think certain ethnic or racial groups are inclined by genetics to be inferior. If you take out the racial science ideas and beliefs racial tensions are no different then the ethnic ones seen in the 1900s and 1800s.

Racial tension has always been an issue in America since the country was born around the time racial ideas began to take off in the west. Racial ideas is the reason most of the black population has not assimilated or been accepted into general American society for most of its history even those they have a cultural that is very uniquely American. American has only had trouble at integrating Muslims, Blacks, and Native Americans into its society. Every other group eventually got accepted at some point. The natives and blacks did not because of racial attitudes of the past. I will say with the natives it was probably also them always picking the wrong side in American wars and getting one president that screwed over the ones who almost integrated. The issue now is multiculturalist play on past racial issues and mistakenly relate them to modern cultural and social conflicts. A Alabama governor in 1965 probably does view blacks as inferior by biology or god. A right wing American governor today likely does not see it that way. Someone like this who just wants black people to act more white or less “ghetto” or have Hispanics act more American. I would describe this more of a cultural conflict that is often labeled wrongly labeled a racial ones. This would still could be an issue within American society even if it receives none of its post-1965 immigrants somehow you will still have a prevalent black population in America. Without post-1965 immigrants the white southern and black population will be the main source of cheap labor. This could lead to a whole lot of new issues. I think this is something to consider in this and often is overlooked
 
I think "no post-1965 immigration" means the system that existed before the Hart-Celler is left in place. That would mean most Western or Northern Europeans and Canadians would probably still have the opportunity to immigrate, as would many Latin Americans.

I understood no post-1965 immigration to mean no immigration after 1965.

If it means no change in immigration rules there would be a lot more Irish legal immigration and very little illegal Irish immigration.
I might now be living in America instead of living in Ireland.
 
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Absolutely Weaker, immigrants and their descendants drive our economy, without them the US would have very quickly run into a labor shortage and immigration rules would have eventually had to have been loosened.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
I understood no post-1965 immigration to mean no immigration after 1965.

If it means no change in immigration rules there would be a lot more Irish legal immigration and very little illegal Irish immigration.
I might now be living in America instead of living in Ireland.
Did the 1965 changes actually make it harder for Irish to come to America? That would be ironic, because Ted Kennedy pushed for Hart-Cellar in order to make it easier for Irish to come. I get that in practice non-Europeans probably benefited the most, but I didn’t think it backfired that hard and stopped Irish immigration.
 
Did the 1965 changes actually make it harder for Irish to come to America? That would be ironic, because Ted Kennedy pushed for Hart-Cellar in order to make it easier for Irish to come. I get that in practice non-Europeans probably benefited the most, but I didn’t think it backfired that hard and stopped Irish immigration.

The changes post 1965 made it a lot harder for the Irish a nd other European to enter America.

How Irish immigrants forever changed the US immigration system

The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 – spearheaded by Irish American icon Senator Ted Kennedy – ended the bias towards immigrants from Europe and opened the door to the Land of the Free to those from Africa and Asia.
Whereas between 1956-65 70,000 Irishmen and women came to America, only 10,000 did so legally the decade between 1976-85 despite Ireland’s stagnant economy.
Instead many came illegally and the their plight shocked millions of Americans who began to reconsider their views on “illegal aliens.”
https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/...nts-forever-changed-the-us-immigration-system

more on the effect of the change of law in 1965
https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewp...-us-as-emigration-clampdown-looms-443548.html
 
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The changes post 1965 made it a lot harder for the Irish a nd other European to enter America.
A lot more Irish started going to the UK and Europe. Most of the Irish came to the US before they got independence when things were really bad there. Living in Ireland after 65 isn’t bad enough to drive you across the ocean. Also you can more easily go to the UK or Europe to make money for a while, send money home, then go back to Ireland when things improve. Ireland post 65 isn’t as bad as places in Africa and Asia. You need people to have really good reasons to go across a large ocean to a country on the other side of the world. The only reason immigration from the eastern countries wasn’t big was because of state prevention of it and also communist nations in Europe with its flaws at least kept its people fed and healthy. But even after things when downwards in Eastern Europe they can just go to Western Europe instead of America. A Irish person can more easily go to Britain which depending on what your talking and preference is a preferable place then the US. The same about Canada. Western Europe and America are just not far enough apart in living standards and freedoms to push a large amount immigration to one or the other. Also Europeans can move to more places now.
 
A lot more Irish started going to the UK and Europe. Most of the Irish came to the US before they got independence when things were really bad there. Living in Ireland after 65 isn’t bad enough to drive you across the ocean. Also you can more easily go to the UK or Europe to make money for a while, send money home, then go back to Ireland when things improve. Ireland post 65 isn’t as bad as places in Africa and Asia. You need people to have really good reasons to go across a large ocean to a country on the other side of the world. The only reason immigration from the eastern countries wasn’t big was because of state prevention of it and also communist nations in Europe with its flaws at least kept its people fed and healthy. But even after things when downwards in Eastern Europe they can just go to Western Europe instead of America. A Irish person can more easily go to Britain which depending on what your talking and preference is a preferable place then the US. The same about Canada. Western Europe and America are just not far enough apart in living standards and freedoms to push a large amount immigration to one or the other. Also Europeans can move to more places now.

Even in the late 1960s Irish people were getting money and parcels of clothes sent home for relatives in America.
So many people and American dollars sent to them shops in Ireland accepted payment in dollars with have to go to bank to change currency.
Knock airport was build partly by dollars sent home by the Irish in America.
There was a rumour that some of the American money may have come for the CIA. The head of the CIA was Mr Casey who was Irish American at the time and a second major airport on the west coast of Ireland was seen as useful in the context of the cold war.
In the 1980s there were a 100,00 Irish living illegally in America.
A lot more would have gone if it was easier to go there legally in the 1980s.
Irish economy often has big crashes and people emigration in big numbers.
after 2009 a lot of Irish went to Australia and Canada as it was easier than going to America.
As you most went to Britain a small number went to other European countries.
Irish tend to prefer going to countries that speak English.
The Irish tend to go where they had family connections.
Most Irish have family in America.
Members of my wider family have be moving to America from 1800 maybe before but I do not have family records before 1800.

The (bad) luck of the Irish

When American politicians talk about immigration, they probably aren’t thinking about the Irish. They should be.

https://www.politico.eu/article/the-bad-luck-of-the-irish-us-immigration-policy-illegal-immigrants/

Hopes rise of new visa agreement with US for Irish citizens
The Government’s special envoy to the United States, John Deasy, confirmed that negotiations were under way. “We’re dealing with the leadership in both the House and the Senate on this issue from both the Democrat and Republican side,” said Mr Deasy, who visited Washington last week. “Definite progress has been made in the last two or three weeks.”
He said that a key element of the package would be easing the requirements for US citizens who want to retire in Ireland. “From the beginning the Taoiseach and I believed that any immigration agreement would require a bilateral arrangement that would benefit both sets of citizens,” the Fine Gael TD said. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/pol...greement-with-us-for-irish-citizens-1.3653273
 
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Even in the late 1960s Irish people were getting money and parcels of clothes sent home for relatives in America.
So many people and American dollars sent to them shops in Ireland accepted payment in dollars with have to go to bank to change currency.
Knock airport was build partly by dollars sent home by the Irish in America.
There was a rumour that some of the American money may have come for the CIA. The head of the CIA was Mr Casey who was Irish American at the time and a second major airport on the west coast of Ireland was seen as useful in the context of the cold war.
In the 1980s there were a 100,00 Irish living illegally in America.
A lot more would have gone if it was easier to go there legally in the 1980s.
Irish economy often has big crashes and people emigration in big numbers.
after 2009 a lot of Irish went to Australia and Canada as it was easier than going to America.
As you most went to Britain a small number went to other European countries.
Irish tend to prefer going to countries that speak English.
The Irish tend to go where they had family connections.
Most Irish have family in America.
Members of my wider family have be moving to America from 1800 maybe before but I do not have family records before 1800.

The (bad) luck of the Irish

When American politicians talk about immigration, they probably aren’t thinking about the Irish. They should be.

https://www.politico.eu/article/the-bad-luck-of-the-irish-us-immigration-policy-illegal-immigrants/
I’m just saying other factors besides American policies might have influence this. There are multiple factors to consider while talking about this. Irish connections with Britain and the commonwealth I think plays a major part in this. If your from Dublin you can more easily go work in London for a few years or a decade at most before returning home. People often forget a lot of immigrants are at places temporarily or work visas. They are often migrant workers not permanent residents. They don’t always plan on staying or do. They make their money, send it back home, and hopefully return at some point. It is easier to return to Ireland if you go to UK or Europe. If your in the UK you can also go back to Ireland for the holidays without too much difficulty. This is harder to due if you go all the way to America. People do consider connivence and location when they move somewhere.

I do think the US might have had some political reasons to this too. US politicians might have thought continued Irish immigration would hurt assimilation of the current Irish population and also there is the issue with the IRA and Irish mafia. More open immigration of Irish immigrants creates more open and frequent travel between the US and Ireland. Groups like the Irish mafia and the IRA can abuse this. With the troubles starting up this could create a lot of issues especially with one of America’s biggest allies Britain. Many Irish Americans use to send money and weapons to the IRA even those the US government tried to stop it. The only reason this stopped, besides the ceasefire in Northern Ireland, was 911 made public opinion completely against anything that could be seen as terrorism and government got a lot harsher on stopping it. Irish mafia was often used as a channel to pump weapons into Ireland to Northern Ireland. Irish mafia in America sent a lot of guns to the IRA. How do you think the British public and government is going to react when they keep finding out the IRA is getting guns and maybe even fighters from the US? How would they react if BBC started airing Boston pubs have funding jars or events for the IRA which happened in OTL? If you watch any American movie the IRA is depicted favorably in them. All this can be much more intense with more first generation Irish people here.

Additionally, many Irish Americans by the 60s like Robert Kennedy and his brother wanted to get away from being depicted or seen as Irish. This includes separating themselves completely from Ireland and the stereotypes associated with it. They wanted to be seen as just American. The younger generation of Irish people by the 60s starting seeing things this way. People like this often did things they thought would encourage or force the rest of the Irish population to fully assimilate. I would like to know the generation gap between the Irish illegals and legals from the stat you gave? Older generations were often considered the least assimilated, more tied to Ireland, and more likely to have direct mafia ties. Younger Irish American people often targeted their parent generation for this exact reasoning but they probably saw newly arrived Irish people vulnerable to the same type of behavior. If you watch American movies about the mafia you will often notice the people often fighting against the mafia are younger Irish/Italian Americans who are depicted as more assimilated and American in character while the mobsters are depicted as old school Irish/Italians who are more tied to the homeland especially culturally. The Departed is the best Irish example of that.

Mafia was a big issue in American politics during the 60s and 70s so the government and Irish and Italian Americans(usually third generation or more) would work with each other to get rid of mafia influence over their groups. Irish people who are from Ireland are likely to be more connected to Ireland then someone three or more generations remove. Like I said before that could be very bad when the troubles get worse. Most Irish immigrants are not going to be involved in this but a noticeable number could get involved with the mafia, IRA, or both. At this time people associated crime with Italians and Irish more then any other group. This can be seen from comics and film until the 70s. A lot of Irish Americans took extreme action to get rid of that image. First generation Irish people are more vulnerable to resorting to crime or the mafia due to their economic situation likely being worse. Irish mob is still a issue in 65 not the cartels or crips yet. Bias and prejudices have changed since 1965. Some Americans back then probably didn’t view Mexicans or Hispanics in a favorable or political correct light but bigoted people back then unlike now did not think they were cunning or smart enough to be criminals like Italians or Irish people were. That is something I think is important to consider. Also the Irish Mafia using people with duel citizenship to pump guns and drugs from America into Ireland, UK, and Europe could be a other issue. Lastly, I would like to know did Ireland work with the US regarding immigration in hopes of lowering emigration from their country by cutting off a place for Irish people to go?
 
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