America VS French Europe

of course it would;)

a) much higher population
b) much higher industrial potential
c) better logistics due to railways


A victory of "French Europe" would be still possible in the 1870s but would be very expensive, ugly and bloody

Logistics would be a even greater problem, because France would need more troops in order to crush the US

How long you think the war would last, and if America wins, could France fully recover from it?
 
My main question is why are they fighting, as that would detail how the war pans out?

For example if Spain is a French puppet and has not signed away Florida, then maybe this war is France defending Spain's rights to Florida against an aggressive expansionist USA?

France is going to be fighting any war with the US alongside its puppetised allies, so its going to have Cuba and Puerto Rico for sure. Now, this raises another question - how did a French puppet Spain fare in the wars of independence in South America? OTL, Spain came near to victory in certain spheres, retained loyalists in others. Has the fact that it is presumably a Bonaparte on the Spanish throne cut these ties of loyalty more severely? Has a Spanish royal established themselves in an ex-Spanish colony as Emperor (Peru could be a good bet)?

Denmark also has islands in the Caribbean as does Holland, if we assume a Bonaparte Holland survives and is is not simply subsumed within the French Empire? If the latter, then French direct holdings in the Caribbean include the Netherlands Antilles and Saint Maarten (of which it rules the other half anyhow)

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Hmm, let's go with that.

This sort of thing affects potential US allies and potential flanks that France and its allies need to defend against, in case for example they try to claim Spanish possessions for this empire and try to rouse anti-Bonaparte feeling. Given Cuba.s difficulties in OTL 19th century, it would not be unlikely that stirring the Cubans up would be a policy of anyone opposed to Bonaparte Spain

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I give it a try.

This happened in Europe:

Somehow Russia and France come to terms, so instead af the 1812/13 Russian debacle Napoleon can preserve his strength. Fighting in Europe continues a few more years - Napoleon finally manages to pacify Spain. (beating a British army in the process).

Wary of Russia Napoleon wants to strengthen the Duchy of Warsaw and trades Galicia for the Illyric Provinces.

In Europe the Confederation of the Rhine, Spain, Switzerland, Italy and Naples are French puppets, the (new) Polish Kingdom, Austria and Denmark are Allies (though Austria only because of dynastic ties)

Sweden, Russia and the Ottoman Empire are neutral (Russia looking to the Southeast while the OE struggles with Egypt)

Britain still supports Portugal and to a certain degree also Prussia (both Poland and Austria are considering the First Division of Prussia ;))

Many Germans, Dutch and Spanish relocate to the Americans (the Spanish to Mexico and South America, thoe others to the US, where they lobby against France.

1821 Napoleon Dies

His son Napoleon Franz suceeds him (until 1832, when he dies without issue). During this time France - while it experiences some minor uprisings - has a rather peaceful time of growth. In 1827 France Britain and Russia support the Greek revolution (which serves to lower the continuing tensions between France and UK)

1832 - Charles Louis Napoleon ascends the French Throne

1837 Victoria ascends the throne, but is killed by a madman - Edward Oxford - 1840 (OTL the assassination attempt failed) - ernst August ascends the throne, but Britain is distracted as his rule is not undisputed.

1841 Napoleon III (as he styles himself) also wants to enlarge France as his predecessors. His eyes fall on Loisiana which was sold away by the great Napoleon. The constant lobbying by German and Dutch and the Attack on the French ambassador in Washington by a Dutch emigree are the perfect excuse to open hostilities. (Cuba and Puerto Rico are nominally Spanish posessions but serve as bases for an attack). Mexico is persuaded by France to join in - the price is Tejas returned and French money.

on June 22nd 1841 French Troops land in New Orleans, Mobile and Charleston. A Mixed Mexican/French corps marches over the Mexican/Texan border. The French Fleet bombards Boston.
 
I give it a try.

This happened in Europe:

Somehow Russia and France come to terms, so instead af the 1812/13 Russian debacle Napoleon can preserve his strength. Fighting in Europe continues a few more years - Napoleon finally manages to pacify Spain. (beating a British army in the process).

Wary of Russia Napoleon wants to strengthen the Duchy of Warsaw and trades Galicia for the Illyric Provinces.

In Europe the Confederation of the Rhine, Spain, Switzerland, Italy and Naples are French puppets, the (new) Polish Kingdom, Austria and Denmark are Allies (though Austria only because of dynastic ties)

Sweden, Russia and the Ottoman Empire are neutral (Russia looking to the Southeast while the OE struggles with Egypt)

Britain still supports Portugal and to a certain degree also Prussia (both Poland and Austria are considering the First Division of Prussia ;))

Many Germans, Dutch and Spanish relocate to the Americans (the Spanish to Mexico and South America, thoe others to the US, where they lobby against France.

1821 Napoleon Dies

His son Napoleon Franz suceeds him (until 1832, when he dies without issue). During this time France - while it experiences some minor uprisings - has a rather peaceful time of growth. In 1827 France Britain and Russia support the Greek revolution (which serves to lower the continuing tensions between France and UK)

1832 - Charles Louis Napoleon ascends the French Throne

1837 Victoria ascends the throne, but is killed by a madman - Edward Oxford - 1840 (OTL the assassination attempt failed) - ernst August ascends the throne, but Britain is distracted as his rule is not undisputed.

1841 Napoleon III (as he styles himself) also wants to enlarge France as his predecessors. His eyes fall on Loisiana which was sold away by the great Napoleon. The constant lobbying by German and Dutch and the Attack on the French ambassador in Washington by a Dutch emigree are the perfect excuse to open hostilities. (Cuba and Puerto Rico are nominally Spanish posessions but serve as bases for an attack). Mexico is persuaded by France to join in - the price is Tejas returned and French money.

on June 22nd 1841 French Troops land in New Orleans, Mobile and Charleston. A Mixed Mexican/French corps marches over the Mexican/Texan border. The French Fleet bombards Boston.

I like it, but how about one in the 1870's (America have better odds fighting the French)
 
I like it, but how about one in the 1870's (America have better odds fighting the French)

It depends how militarised this America is? The French of OTL were leading the world in naval developments, from purpose-built screw ships of the line, to dedicated transport fleets, to iron-clads. If the US picks a war without paying attention, it might get its navy annihilated

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I like it, but how about one in the 1870's (America have better odds fighting the French)

I want France to win ;)

I assume that the war will not that easy as napoleon assumes.

What could happen: The Netherlands and the Germans within Frances borders make an uprising, the Confederation of the Rhine faces popular nationalistic uprisings too.

Austria senses an opportunity and jumps with Polish help on Prussia (First partition of Prussia) - Silesia to Austria, East Prussia + Poznan to Poland.

britain comes to its senses and allies with Russia and the US vs. France - OE still sre beccause of Greece allies with Austria and Poland vs Russia (Seden joins for a piece of Prussia and Finland.

So in 1845 we have the First Great War ;)
 
I want France to win ;)

I assume that the war will not that easy as napoleon assumes.

What could happen: The Netherlands and the Germans within Frances borders make an uprising, the Confederation of the Rhine faces popular nationalistic uprisings too.

Austria senses an opportunity and jumps with Polish help on Prussia (First partition of Prussia) - Silesia to Austria, East Prussia + Poznan to Poland.

britain comes to its senses and allies with Russia and the US vs. France - OE still sre beccause of Greece allies with Austria and Poland vs Russia (Seden joins for a piece of Prussia and Finland.

So in 1845 we have the First Great War ;)

Cool. What would the aftermath look like? (America wins)
 
Cool. What would the aftermath look like? (America wins)

You are sounding like a broken record....America wins...America wins...

Sorry to break it to you (again) but America can't win against a Napoleonic Empire in 1840. It simply isn't strong enough yet. Not enough people, not enough economic development, no navy strong enough to defend itself against a French juggernaut.

This underdeveloped nature of the country does work in its favour as any invading force would have to rely on supplies shipped in and actually occupying America would be difficult but not impossible as other conquests in the region have shown.

So it depends on the political goals of France in this war and how much effort this Napoleon wants to put into it. Uprisings and political unrest in annexed areas and puppet states are quite likely if France goes to war again (and suffers a few reverses) but France is simply too powerful to be toppled as long as its army survives....

Historically, only the destruction of the Grande Armee in 1812 (and the constant attrition in Spain) could weaken France sufficiently to be defeated by a coalition of every other major power in Europe. Every other major power.....!

If France is smart, it ensures no new coalition is formed against her by America. Or better yet, co-opts other powers to attack America as well....By promising England her former colonies, France would ensure that England is focused on America, leaving Europe to France (much as Bismarck encouraged French colonial adventures after the war of 1870).
 

Dirk_Pitt

Banned
Why not wait till the Alt-ACW? By 1840 many will notice the divisions forming within the United States and will just wait for the figurative house of cards to fall. Many in Europe have been predicting this for decades.
 
So, ah, the US, watching forty years of Revolutionary Frenchmen running wild in Europe and helping Spain retain her New World Empire just, ah, sits there and does nothing? The US undertook a naval building program in this period because of The XYZ Affair, which is a quite a bit less important stuff that would have given Monroe a heart attack. Napoleon and Co. throwing French troops all over the Spanish Empire is not going to engender complacency and sectional divide.
 
Under the códition that the Anglo-Russian side has to win:

1. Austria (Always a distant ally of France - especially after the death of Napoleon II) switches sides after securing Silesia (UK and Rissia guarantee the aquisition Prussia will be satisfied elsewhere). Austria does this under the pretext of a pan German "revolution" against imperial France. (After the war the Austrian emperor will be primus inter pares in a "federal" Germany without Prussia (yes - I somewhat turned this into an Austrowank). Austria will get back Salzburg and Tirol from Bavaria, including the part of Bavaria south of the river Inn. In addition Austria will sponsor a Sicilian attack on Naples (Two Sicilies will in teh aftermath of the war unite Italy)

2. Russia - After Austria switches sides Russian troops easily defeat the Polsih Kingdom and push back the Ottoman Empire. Onn the BAlkans a Serbian Principality and the Romanian And Bulgarian Kingdoms will be Russian sattelites while Greece expands into Thessalia including Salonika. Teh Ottoman Empire is almost pushed out of Europe. Egypt as ally of Britain establises a rule up to Syria.

Britain establishes a independent Netherlands not including the French speaking Parts of Belgium which remain with France (as does Luxembourg - which might be the spark for a new war in the future).

Prussia is reestablished without Silesia, but getting Hannover, Eastprussia, Swedish Pomerania, Mecklenburg and the Western half of Poland (Eastern goes to Russia)

The US aquires Cuba and Puerto Rico and basically what it got in 1848. OTL Washington and Oregon are spoils for the Brits.

As Britain is too distracted with the internal dispute regarding Victorias sucession and later the Great war, the First Opium war is butterflied away and China gets a few more years to "modernize".

The US will immediately be part of the "new" big 5:

Britain
Russia
Germany (Austrian led)
France (still considered a mayor power)
US

over the next decades Italy will aquire Great Power status as will China (after defeting a British expedition in the early 50s)

Britain and the US will develop strong ties, while Russia will compete with Britain in Asia.

Teh scramble for Africa will be done by mainly Britain /sharing the south with Portugal, France (West Africa and Algeria), Italy (Tunesia, OTL French Equatorial Africa) Egypt (Libya, Sudan, OTL French Central Africa). Morocco will sta independentm, as will Abyssinia.

China will be dominating Japan, Korea and Indochina with Siam. And after a sucessful war with Spain also take the Phillipines. OTL DEI will be a British Posession.

At the turn of the Century Anglo-Russian rivalry will have divided teh world in two camps

Britain + GErmany (Still Austrian led) + US vs Russia/France (China - as they are competing with Britain is Southeastasia)
 
Well the south wasnt eager to break away. yes, thats true.
Yet there were severe conflicts, for example the tarrif question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_of_Abominations

A lower tarrif would not only be in favor of the South, but also in favor of France/Europe which had a lead in industrialisation.

So i guess there would be few southern volunteers to support the yankees and introducing conscription would be very unpopular.

There would be plenty of southern volunteers to support the United States, at least if we're not talking about a war that is seen by the South as New England saw the War of 1812 (which you have given no reason for this to be).


Yes, i agree there would have been bloody battles. The proto-industrial heartland of the US was nevertheless in the North, not so far away from the Canadian springboard - so a quick launched offensive of well equipped French/European forces could be potentially deadly for the US.
No, it would be potentially like previous invasions. It's not so close to the Canadian border that it would be easy or quick - we're talking (southern) New York and Pennsylvania as well as New England.

it would still hurt the US though
"Still hurt" and "bring to its knees" are two different things.

Well IF a French ruled Europe is determined to crush the US in the 1840s, than it wont be very easy but it will prevail - the industrial and military potential of Europe at that age is several times higher than that of the US.
And once again, logistics. All that power potential has to be sent across the Atlantic and supplied across the Atlantic.

Being much stronger than the US only means as much as the forces it can actually bring into the theater.

It would be a lot easier for this to be a stalemate than an Imperial win.
Its ridiculous that in the 1860s the US needed 4 years!! to win the war against an enemy (CSA) which was so much weaker in terms of population, industrial and military potential



Costly yes, but why impossible?

If we assume that a French ruled Europe has a large navy - it would have the industrial potential building it - than these logistical problems can be solved. Of course it wouldnt be an easy task or a very quick victory. Nevertheless the US would lose, time wouldnt be on their side in such a war as it was during WWII IOTL.
Overall the USA was a fast growing but still much weaker power than a French ruled Europe during that particular age. (population, industrial potential etc.)

Also with a large navy France could threaten the important American cities on the East Coast, so Frances strategy would be more flexible and the US would have to react instead of having the initiative.

Because we're talking about such massive amounts of supplies that 20th century generals - with railroads all over and steamships and trucks - had no easy task keeping these beasts fed.

http://johnsmilitaryhistory.com/revbrit.html

This mentions 400 transport ships for Howe's 32,000 men around New York City. And 32,000 men were not enough to break the barely-even-a-nation US. They're not going to be able to do that in 1840.

So that means magnifying the size of the force, and even if say producing that much food is no problem (in the context of the empire, it's only half a million men) that doesn't mean having it where its needed and when isn't. Ask those preparing the Armada of 1588 to sail on how big a chore this is, and that for - again - an even smaller fleet.

I'm not saying the US can win this in any meaningful sense, but projecting power into the Western Hemisphere is much more difficult than doing so within Europe, and that's before the battles are fought.
 
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