America, the Failed Experiment: an ATL

The Treaty of Windsor... is literally an impossible political abomination, that neither Spain nor Britain would have any part of. there is absolutely no political imperative for them to make any of these concessions. With the stronger US of OTL Spain did compete for influence in the SW...With what is argueably a weaker US this time around. they will compete even more vigorously and with more determined purpose. With a fractured South...they can crush Georgia if need be even if they are assisted by the Carolinans. Absent the French Revolution they have even more resources to deploy if necessary to make the point if need be.

For the British, there were several unresolved grievances that arose with the US that were not resolved until the Jay treaty, until then they occupied key forts in the NW. This US will not have the political unity or capability of meeting those grievances equitably, and argueably Britain will see this weakness to re-establish influence or out right control to redress those grievances. Even if recognized as winning their independence. They are still rebels and if an opening presented itself they would take it...The independence of Virginia and its claims over much of the NW offers just that opportunity.

I'm not saying its impossible, but its highly unlikely.

The agreement between spain and Britain on the western boundary at the 49th...is a decision of convenience for yourself. neither side has any politicalimperative to make this agreement at this time, and there is no reason for it to be discussed with the american republics who have no political stake in it in any case. They are still political and economic competitors. There is no reason for an agreement until one side or the other has more than the passing fur trappers imprint on an overlapping area of jurisdiction. Until permanent fortifications or settlements go up there is no political imperative to demarck the border officially. Economic transient trespassers may be an "annoyance" to be officially protested, but nothing to go to war over unless the trespassing is endemic and causing economic and political damage in one of the parties home countries.

It will be the 1820's or even the 30's before that is even remotely necessary.

However the absence of a French revolution does make a French Louisiana more possible, even likely I think. Royalist France and Britain though are even more political and economic competitors. Neither is likely to make political concessions to the other unless absolutely necessary and probably after some rather nasty unpleasantness.

Btw, Why has the Austrian Empire imploded....There has been no French republican experience in combination with a nationalistic awakening, so the the monarchy is likely to remain more firmly entrenched. This is of course the era of the Hapsburg-Bourbon Rapprochement as well and that should be factored in as well. Between the two of them they will dominate West Central Europe. its unlikely to survive much though past Leopold's reign without considerable effort. I await with anticipation the development of a non-republican revolution Europe...Obviously though there must have been some reform in the Ancien regime, as it was sorely needed to avoid the violent upheaval of the revolution. Btw... I think its likely that the Polish partitions would not have occurred without the revolution. The Austrians, divided on the point at first would be supported by the French in opposing the move. Which would provide the Poles with the breathing room to reform the constitutions governing the republic to resist further encroachment in future. IF Austria and France oppose it then the Russians who might be interested will not chance it and instead go with the original plan in concert with the Austrians and turn on the Ottomans instead. Prussia cannot move by itself as they will be opposed by everyone which will completely destroy the state, as it almost very well did in the 7 years war, but for the rather fortuitous death of the Tsarina. This is not the Prussia of Frederick II afterall.
 
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That map was old. In the newer map, after I figured out story direction better, Quebec is independent and gains independence much later than Louisiana. When Louisiana wins independence from France in the 1830s, the borders negotiated at independence are different from the colonial borders. Part of this includes land that extends to the Pacific coast. Louisiana then purchased parts of what was to be Mexico when it was still a part of Spain.

Spain was loath to sell anything OTL unless it no longer held any strategic or economic value OTL...why would they do so TTL. Mexico even less so.

Quebec, yes I could well see developed as a separate dominion w/n the empire, and even evolving to republic ( on the Indian model) and even leaving completely a la Pakistan sometime during the 20th C.

A louisiana gining independence in the 1830's, is not going to have the manpower or influence to negotiate anything with anyone but its colonial borders, particularly not S[ain, not Mexico and not Britain

By the 1830's the Red River Settlement will entrenched over the entire valley and British economic interests will be pervasive throughout the NW. Even if Britain supported Louisiana's independence against France or Spain, they won't be cutting them any slack on the borders on anything but what were its colonial ones pre independence.

Even the Spanish did not do so OTL with the US Until it became politically expedient and necessary to do so in 1796 OTL. Spain 1796 is far weaker than Brtain 1830's, while Louisiana 1830's will be lucky if its the equal of 1790's USA OTL., thus its in a far weaker position of influence and bargaining strength. I'm sorry but I don't see it as a possibility even remotely. The border is likely to be established at the headwaters of the Red between the Mississippi and the rockies while the colonial powers still have jurisdiction.

Independence gained from Spain is possible Devolving autonomy would probably be encouraged strongly by their French Allies, but the borders while generous beyond what perhaps Spain administered as Louisiana would not be as generous as if the region were retroceded to France first. From France its not, unless its devolved to them or they have outside help ( Britain most probably, directly or more likely indirectly). Britain though has its own problems during the 1830s with the Canada rebellions against the oligarchic regimes there so may not be in a position to help, nor even inclined to do so against similiarly minded rebels. You might like to delay that independence another generation.

Any gains though against New Spain or Mexico would be improbable at that point. New Spain/Mexico would outweigh Louisiana 2:1. Mexico in this case probably had independence devolved to them. France would help them quell any rebellion, but at the cost of politcal reform of some kind, hence devolution.
 
This is all very thought provoking. To be honest, I haven't done a ton of thinking about Louisiana since that is still a ways off in the story. I will rethink the Treaty of Windsor: changing it might actually be better for the course of the story.

Here are the governments of the American republics. They all have a similar style, but each has its differences, like North Carolina requiring someone to be of Protestant Christian faith to hold office or Georgia giving fines to men who can vote that do not. These are all based off state constitutions under the Articles.

United States of America
President of the United States
Elected every four years by property owning males over the age of 21, has a
power of veto, power to assemble the legislature and individual power to place
embargoes.
Senate
Upper house of legislature, elected by members of the lower house.
House of Representatives
Lower house of legislature, elected by males over the age of 21.
Court System
Justices of a federal court appointed by the president and commissioned by
the legislature. Justices of state courts appointed by governors and approved
by state legislatures.
Guaranteed Rights
All listed in the Virginian Declaration of Rights, including freedom of the press.

Republic of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations
President of Rhode Island
Elected by males over the age of 21. Has the power of veto and power to
assemble the legislature.
National Assembly
Unicameral legislature, elected by white males over the age of 21.
Court System
Three minor courts exist under one Supreme Court. Justices are nominated by
the legislature and approved by the president. Right to a fair trial.
Guaranteed Rights
Freedom of the press, right to a fair trial and freedom of religion (provided it
not threaten safety of the state or its citizens).

Commonwealth of Virginia
President of Virginia
Elected to four year terms by males over the age of 21 who have taken an
oath to the state. Has veto power and power to assemble the legislature.
Legislative Council
Upper house of legislature, consists of 12 members appointed by members of
the lower house. Also serves as advisors to the president and vice president.
House of Representatives
Lower house of legislature, elected by males over the age of 21 who have
taken an oath to the state.
Court System
A court is required in every county. Justices are commissioned by their counties respective
representatives. Right to a fair trial and jury by peers.
Guaranteed Rights
All detailed in the Virginian Declaration of Rights, along with freedom of the
press.

Republic of North Carolina
President of North Carolina
Elected to three year terms by both Houses. Has veto power and power to
assemble the legislature. Also given individual power to place embargoes.
Senate
Upper house of legislature, elected to three year terms by males over the age
of 21 who own at least 50 acres of land. Must be of Protestant Christian faith
to serve office.
House of Commons
Lower house of legislature, elected every five years by males over the age of
21. Must be of Protestant Christian faith to serve office.
Court System
Justices are appointed by the legislature and commissioned by the president.
Right to a fair trial and jury by peers.
Guaranteed Rights
All that are detailed in the Virginian Declaration of Rights.

Republic of South Carolina
President of South Carolina
Elected to five year terms by both Houses. Has veto power but not to
assemble the legislative body.
Legislative Council
13 members appointed by members of the General Assembly, the upper house
of legislators.
General Assembly
Elected to five year terms by land owning white males over 21 years of age,
the lower house of legislators.
Court System
Justices appointed by members of the General Assembly and commissioned by
the President. Right to a fair trial.
Guaranteed Rights
Freedom of the press and the right to a fair trial.

Republic of Georgia
President of Georgia
Elected to three year terms by the Representatives.
Has veto power and power to assemble the legislative body.
Assembly of Representatives
Unicameral legislature, elected to single year terms by property owning white
males over the age of 21. If one who is eligible to vote does not vote, then a
small fine must be paid.
Court System
Appointed to three year terms by the Assembly. One court required in each
county. The trial will occur in the county where the crime is committed. All are
guaranteed to the right of a fair trial and a jury of at least 18.
Guaranteed Rights
Right to a fair trial, freedom of the press, and of religion (provided it not
threaten safety of the state or its citizens).
 
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Sorry about the lack of writing recently. I have been trying to plan the direction I want this story to go in while dealing with all of the schoolwork. While planning, I made a couple of maps, and this is one I really like. I present to you, the Republic of Louisiana, America's reigning superpower :D


Please, if my French is incorrect tell me (Google Translate is a bit finicky).

Why do people always assume that an independent Quebec will automatically include the huge area north of the St Lawrence River. That area was not given to the Province until 1912. Until then it was a territory called Ungava. A more realistic representation would be the St Lawrence River Watershed.
 
Why do people always assume that an independent Quebec will automatically include the huge area north of the St Lawrence River. That area was not given to the Province until 1912. Until then it was a territory called Ungava. A more realistic representation would be the St Lawrence River Watershed.

This is an old incorrect map I made before I bothered to think out the story direction. Quebec ITTL will be an independent republic and only controls the southern half of what this is. Please see the previous page for the correct map.
 
I don't understand. Why are there so many republics and a city in Louisiana called Bonaparte? Shouldn't the dissolution of the US have butterflied away Napoleon's rise to power and the popularity of Republics?
 
Here is an updated map of 1791. The border alterations around Spanish/British borders have been removed, as well as some capitals and names changed.
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For Rhode Island could I suggest the heir apparent be Prince of Providence Plantations, as Rhode Island and Providence Plantations was the name of the colony and is the official name of the current state? That and it has added alliterative appeal.
 
Looking at that map, i still hold the opinion that Rhode Island and Vermont are not going to last long surrounded by a larger republic.
 
The correct spelling is La Nouvelle-Orléans because it is a feminine name same thing when you say with Auvergne would be written Nouvelle Auvergne. By the way 1786 is too late to butterfly the french revolution in my opinion.
 
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For Rhode Island could I suggest the heir apparent be Prince of Providence Plantations, as Rhode Island and Providence Plantations was the name of the colony and is the official name of the current state? That and it has added alliterative appeal.
That sounds like a good name. I knew about the full name but just usually stick with the short hand Rhode Island.
Looking at that map, i still hold the opinion that Rhode Island and Vermont are not going to last long surrounded by a larger republic.
Well, these two actually survive the best: Britian takes both under her wing to keep tabs on the US which keeps them independent.
The correct spelling is La Nouvelle-Orléans because it is a feminine name same thing when you say with Auvergne would be written Nouvelle Auvergne. By the way 1786 is too late to butterfly the french revolution in my opinion.
Ok! I wish I could make that map go away: it has bad French and bad borders. :p Also, the part about the revolution is very interesting. I thought it would have most likely been averted. However, it is going to make for a much better TL if I can still have a plausible French Revolution around the turn of the century.
 
Well, these two actually survive the best: Britian takes both under her wing to keep tabs on the US which keeps them independent.
that's......well, interesting. I find mys SOD close to actually being punctured actually. Rhode Island, i could believe as it orders Canada, but Connecticut.....maybe.
 
The french revolution might not be averted but it does not mean it will go like OTL since it's inspiration the american experiment failed France might become a constitutional monarchy seeing as republic does not work. I still think by 1786 it is too late to fix the financial situation France was.
 
I have changed around the last chapter some, getting rid of the involvement of Spain and Great Britain in the treaty.
 
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