America: A TL Retold

Time for the slaughter fest to begin. The Entente may have trouble from the beginning parts they will most likely win. For one the US is a giant that have to be awoken and with Canada north and the Islands to the south they would have the reason to. The other is Britain maybe powerful but their empire is far fling and not all of the people like their British overlords.
 
Time for the slaughter fest to begin. The Entente may have trouble from the beginning parts they will most likely win. For one the US is a giant that have to be awoken and with Canada north and the Islands to the south they would have the reason to. The other is Britain maybe powerful but their empire is far fling and not all of the people like their British overlords.

Is it possible thar I made this ww1 larger than I did in my last America TL?
 
I predict that the US and her allies will win in the Americas. However, their allies in Europe are doomed. France had enough trouble holding off germany in otl, but with Russia (massive army, no distraction for germany in the east) AND Britain (massive navy, disrupt trade and american reinforcements) on Germany's side? No way france and friends win this one.

The most interesting theatre should be the pacific, where the forces should be more roughly even and the outcome is uncertain. What's the Netherlands doing in their East Indies colony right now?
 
This is an America f***K yeah! fic so of course they will win. And even if they loose they will conquer Canada and the Caribbean :rolleyes:
 
This is an America f***K yeah! fic so of course they will win. And even if they loose they will conquer Canada and the Caribbean :rolleyes:

That's...basically what I said would happen. The United States (can't call it America if it doesn't cover the whole of the Americas. :p) will win, but her european allies are gonna get stomped.
 
I just found this TL and read through it for the past couple of days. Interesting and similar to my Quasi-War TL.

A few plausibility points, mostly regarding the Civil War Era pages:

1. I don't think that Great Britain would be so eager to go to war as you state. The US (North) was also a preferred trading partner and much of the British establishment were against slavery. They just went through a long war in the Crimea that made the previous administration unpopular and indebted.

Wars fought abroad were disproportionately expensive. Given that Britain had few major reasons to get involved (even with the "weaker" relations with the US you describe), I doubt Britain would so wholeheartedly stick their head in this hornet's nest.

2. The scale of the British Armies and speed in which they were assembled was unrealistic. I think, excluding the Indian Army, the British army worldwide was about 130,000 including a large number of "non-combatants" like semi-retired soldiers kept on in nominal roles, those going through training, the infirm, those being transferred about. The 150,000+ armies that you speak of in 1861-2 would represent the entire British army worldwide.

3. Note that Canada would not volunteer in huge numbers for what is essentially an offensive war brought on by Britain against a much larger southern neighbor. They would not like being on the front line and Canadians were very anti-slavery. The Queen announcing that 150,000 Canadians were expected to invade the US would not go down well, especially after the problems between Canada and the mother country in OTL in this time period.

4. Logistically, the large Anglo-Canadian armies you describe would have an enormously difficult time maintaining any kind of supply line from Canada even at smaller numbers. I don't see how 150,000+ could be supplied at all.

5. I don't see the French so incredibly willing to jump in here either. Even with weaker ties to Britain, they would have little to gain and much to lose. Someday in the future splitting Mexico with the US would not be a reasonable casis belli. They'd spend years defeating the south, then fighting their way through the Royal Navy to get to Mexico, then conquering Mexico and then hoping to find the result worth their while.

They guaranteed a long war at huge expense but no real guaranteed benefit even if they won. Britain would also be threatening French interests elsewhere.

6. I'm not sure if Austria would get involved over basically a North American war. What would be their reason?

7. The rate of casualties that you bring up, often 20% to 50% of an army in a single battle, is very uncommon for the period. 2-5% is more standard. The armies would collapse after a battle or two if they endured as many terrible blows as you describe.

8. I don't think Britain would hand over a dozen colonies in the manner that you describe, especially as France didn't conquer any of them. They'd give up Canada first.

9. Just a note but you didn't mention the recruitment of southern slaves into the Union Army. That would be a major point, especially if the US, desperate for manpower, made that decision earlier than in OTL.


Otherwise, it is an entertaining TL.
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
That's...basically what I said would happen. The United States (can't call it America if it doesn't cover the whole of the Americas. :p) will win, but her european allies are gonna get stomped.

Yeah I see it ending that way as well, you have the two weakest Great Powers in Europe, Italy and Austria-Hungary, attached to France who one on one can not beat Germany much less with a blockade and with Germany being supported by Russian manpower. Honestly the only thing that might keep this from being a complete rollover is the fact that it is essentially one long front but France will still lose.

In the Americas, however, there is absolutely no way the US and Brazil are going to lose this one since absolutely everything is in their favor, population: check, industry: check, resilient to blockade due to being near autarkies: check, which does not even mention their allies of Chile, Ecuador, Bolivia, and likely Mexico. On the opposite side is rump Canada and Argentina as the "giants" with support from Peru, Columbia, Venezuela, Uruguay, and Paraguay. Brazil might have some tough times ahead being essentially surrounded but the US is going to crush Canada.

As said above the Pacific is going to be the true battleground as the US fights Japan, Britain, and Russia for control of the islands with the real battle being between Japan v US as the other powers are going to be busy closer to home to really get heavily involved in the Pacific. The real wild card is if China throws in with the US in an attempt to hit back at Japan, Britain, and Russia and how the various colonies react and are treated and/or occupied.

Needless to say this will be a true World War that will push most countries to the brink.
 
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That's...basically what I said would happen. The United States (can't call it America if it doesn't cover the whole of the Americas. :p) will win, but her european allies are gonna get stomped.

Yeah the US is probably gonna end this controlling anything that isn't already controlled by them in the US.(Also the Pacific as well potentially)
 
Yeah I see it ending that way as well, you have the two weakest Great Powers in Europe, Italy and Austria-Hungary, attached to France who one on one can not beat Germany much less with a blockade and with Germany being supported by Russian manpower. Honestly the only thing that might keep this from being a complete rollover is the fact that it is essentially one long front but France will still lose.

In the Americas, however, there is absolutely no way the US and Brazil are going to lose this one since absolutely everything is in their favor, population: check, industry: check, resilient to blockade due to being near autarkies: check, which does not even mention their allies of Chile, Ecuador, Bolivia, and likely Mexico. On the opposite side is rump Canada and Argentina as the "giants" with support from Peru, Columbia, Venezuela, Uruguay, and Paraguay. Brazil might have some tough times ahead being essentially surrounded but the US is going to crush Canada.

As said above the Pacific is going to be the true battleground as the US fights Japan, Britain, and Russia for control of the islands with the real battle being between Japan v US as the other powers are going to be busy closer to home to really get heavily involved in the Pacific. The real wild card is if China throws in with the US in an attempt to hit back at Japan, Britain, and Russia and how the various colonies react and are treated and/or occupied.

Needless to say this will be a true World War that will push most countries to the brink.

You know if China does throw in with the US that actually could save the European allies. Britain would be more worried about India then Europe(Crown Jewel and whatnot) so I could see them having the bulk of the army in India trying to stave off the Chinese. If Vladivostok is captured I could see the Tsar of Russia(Nicky 2 IIRC) demanding it recaptured at all costs and becoming a quagmire for Russia drawing more and more troops from Europe. If that happens and the USN is able to break the blockade and send troops to France then we could get WW1 on super-mega-ultra-steroids with every nation having a lost generation.
 
I just found this TL and read through it for the past couple of days. Interesting and similar to my Quasi-War TL.

A few plausibility points, mostly regarding the Civil War Era pages:

1. I don't think that Great Britain would be so eager to go to war as you state. The US (North) was also a preferred trading partner and much of the British establishment were against slavery. They just went through a long war in the Crimea that made the previous administration unpopular and indebted.

Wars fought abroad were disproportionately expensive. Given that Britain had few major reasons to get involved (even with the "weaker" relations with the US you describe), I doubt Britain would so wholeheartedly stick their head in this hornet's nest.

2. The scale of the British Armies and speed in which they were assembled was unrealistic. I think, excluding the Indian Army, the British army worldwide was about 130,000 including a large number of "non-combatants" like semi-retired soldiers kept on in nominal roles, those going through training, the infirm, those being transferred about. The 150,000+ armies that you speak of in 1861-2 would represent the entire British army worldwide.

3. Note that Canada would not volunteer in huge numbers for what is essentially an offensive war brought on by Britain against a much larger southern neighbor. They would not like being on the front line and Canadians were very anti-slavery. The Queen announcing that 150,000 Canadians were expected to invade the US would not go down well, especially after the problems between Canada and the mother country in OTL in this time period.

4. Logistically, the large Anglo-Canadian armies you describe would have an enormously difficult time maintaining any kind of supply line from Canada even at smaller numbers. I don't see how 150,000+ could be supplied at all.

5. I don't see the French so incredibly willing to jump in here either. Even with weaker ties to Britain, they would have little to gain and much to lose. Someday in the future splitting Mexico with the US would not be a reasonable casis belli. They'd spend years defeating the south, then fighting their way through the Royal Navy to get to Mexico, then conquering Mexico and then hoping to find the result worth their while.

They guaranteed a long war at huge expense but no real guaranteed benefit even if they won. Britain would also be threatening French interests elsewhere.

6. I'm not sure if Austria would get involved over basically a North American war. What would be their reason?

7. The rate of casualties that you bring up, often 20% to 50% of an army in a single battle, is very uncommon for the period. 2-5% is more standard. The armies would collapse after a battle or two if they endured as many terrible blows as you describe.

8. I don't think Britain would hand over a dozen colonies in the manner that you describe, especially as France didn't conquer any of them. They'd give up Canada first.

9. Just a note but you didn't mention the recruitment of southern slaves into the Union Army. That would be a major point, especially if the US, desperate for manpower, made that decision earlier than in OTL.


Otherwise, it is an entertaining TL.

A bunch of those points you brought up if you'll look back I did give reasons for why each nation did what they did and why the outcome was what it was.

And whether those ate good ones or not there's not a whole lot that can be done for it now
 
Yeah I see it ending that way as well, you have the two weakest Great Powers in Europe, Italy and Austria-Hungary, attached to France who one on one can not beat Germany much less with a blockade and with Germany being supported by Russian manpower. Honestly the only thing that might keep this from being a complete rollover is the fact that it is essentially one long front but France will still lose.

In the Americas, however, there is absolutely no way the US and Brazil are going to lose this one since absolutely everything is in their favor, population: check, industry: check, resilient to blockade due to being near autarkies: check, which does not even mention their allies of Chile, Ecuador, Bolivia, and likely Mexico. On the opposite side is rump Canada and Argentina as the "giants" with support from Peru, Columbia, Venezuela, Uruguay, and Paraguay. Brazil might have some tough times ahead being essentially surrounded but the US is going to crush Canada.

As said above the Pacific is going to be the true battleground as the US fights Japan, Britain, and Russia for control of the islands with the real battle being between Japan v US as the other powers are going to be busy closer to home to really get heavily involved in the Pacific. The real wild card is if China throws in with the US in an attempt to hit back at Japan, Britain, and Russia and how the various colonies react and are treated and/or occupied.

Needless to say this will be a true World War that will push most countries to the brink.

In regards to Italy first it is allied with Germany and Britain and I'd say close to twice as powerful as OTL. France is allied with Spain.

To France all I say is remember that this isn't OTL France this is still the first French Empire. The only 2 times they've lost a war was the war of the sixth coalition and the Franco Prussian war
 
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In regards to Italy first it is allied with Germany and Britain and I'd say close to twice as powerful as OTL. France is allied with Spain.

To France all I say is remember that this isn't OTL France this is still the first French Empire. The only 2 times they've lost a war was the war of the sixth coalition and the Franco Prussian war

And now you say that Italy is allied to germany and is more powerful than OTL? Ok, I don't care how much more powerful than OTL france is. Unless the entire german army is composed of brainless incompetents, France WILL lose.

I just hope that whatever happens, the Japanese military is discredited in some way so that the democratic civilian government stays in power.
 
And now you say that Italy is allied to germany and is more powerful than OTL? Ok, I don't care how much more powerful than OTL france is. Unless the entire german army is composed of brainless incompetents, France WILL lose.

I just hope that whatever happens, the Japanese military is discredited in some way so that the democratic civilian government stays in power.
All I was doing was correcting which side Italy was on and that France isn't going to be a complete pushover. Not saying anything will or will not happen one way or another
 
Latin Fronts

Following their defeat at Paranhos the Paraguayans with drew to their new defensive lines at Curuguaty with the Brazilians in quick pursuit. On August 2 the Battle of Curuguaty began as Brazilian forces began assaulting the Paraguayan lines. The Battle of Curuguaty would last until August 9 when the weight of Brazilian numbers would force the enemy from their trenches. By mid September Marshal César and his army had made it halfway to the Paraguayan capital and Bolivian forces had captured Conception. Paraguay had finally gotten some assistance in the form of 70,000 Argentine forces. On September 17 the Battle of San Estanisiao began and for once Brazil didn't have numerical superiority.

Following the Battle of Salto Brazil was exhausted and while artillery duels continued across the Uruguay River the Brazilian's held still for nearly a month. Finally, after being reinforced to nearly 300,000, Marshal Carneiro ordered his army to attack beginning the Battle of the Uruguay. The lull however had also allowed Argentina to move up new troops and, along with the remaining Uruguayans, numbered over 250,000. The Battle of the Uruguay would go on for over two months and end up being stretched across 30 miles before it would end.

As Marshal Carneiro prepared for the attack across the Uruguay, the second line of Brazilian's were preparing another offensive on the Uruguayan capital Montevideo. However instead of attacking again at Tacuarembo, where the majority of Uruguayan troops were deployed, a new invasion was a second invasion occurred on September 1. At 4am General José Jardim invaded eastern Uruguay with 80,000 men. The Uruguayans had very few men available to confront this new threat and the Brazilian's moved quickly easily defeating the 20,000 strong garrison at the Battle of Melo and another at the Battle of Treinta y Tres. By the end of September nearly all of uruguay was under Brazilian control and only 80,000 Uruguayan troops and militia stood in between them and Montevideo. As the Battle of Montevideo began on October 3 however, these outnumbered, outgunned, and outtrained troops would make Brazil pay for every block, street, and house thy captured in blood.

The Ecuadorian Front opened up on July 1 as Peruvian and Colombian artillery opened up on on the Ecuadorians. Since becoming allied with Brazil and with it the Entente, Ecuador had been receiving significant amounts of arms from the US and France as well as trainers from these nations as well. By the time war began Ecuador had a highly professional and modern army second only to Brazil on the continent. What they couldn't import however was a larger population and though they had a technological advantage over Peru and Colombia they were outnumbered 3-1 and was forced to fight on two fronts.

After three hours of bombardment Colombian forces would attack the Ecuadorians in waves at their fortifications at Tulcán. The Battle of Tulcán lasted on thirty hours before the city fell to the Colombians. Using the sheer force of numbers Colombia advanced forward and by August all of the Carchi and Sucumbíos regions were under their control however their march down the coast was halted by fierce Ecuadorian resistance on July 25 at the Battle of Rosa Zárate. Here Ecuador would hold the Colombians at bay for over a month, not withdrawing until September 7.

Ecuador wasn't Colombia's only front to fight on. On July 4 just after delivering its declaration Colombian forces invaded Panama with over 100,000 men advancing. To combat this the US had only 30,000 men under Major General Frederick Funston in the area and available to fight. The narrow stretch of the isthmus however made this less of a problem and General Funston would use this terrain to their advantage. The Battle of the Darién Gap would go on for forty-four days as the Colombians threw wave after wave of troops against the Americans slowly driving them back. By mid August however the Colombian Army was exhausted and on August 17 the battle came to an end with the line only forty-five miles into Panama.

On Ecuador's southern front the Peruvians were attacking as well. In just two days they would defeat Ecuador in the Battle of the Chinchipe and began their invasion of Ecuador. The Peruvians captured territory in eastern Ecuador fairly quickly however, closer to the coast Ecuador would make a stand on July 17 at the Battle of Zamora. It would take twenty-nine days before Peru would finally wrest the city from Ecuador. Exhausted the Peruvians wouldn't move again for a month.

While advancing on Ecuador, Peru itself would be under attack and invaded on its southern borders. On July 8 45,000 Bolivian troops invaded Peru. This was seen as a lesser front for both sides so the numbers that were engaged here were reasonably small. Peru had only 37,000 men in the area and the two armies met one another on July 21 near Azángaro. The Battle of Azángaro would last for three days and more resemble a battle from the previous century than a new modern one. The Bolivian's would win the day and capture the city with Peru withdrawing to Macusani. A month later Bolivia attacked again with more forces at the Battle of Macusani. Peru had moved in more troops as well however and here the fighting would bog down and continue off and on for most of September.

The Chilean border would be the main theater for Peru, and Chile, to fight on. On July 6 General Adolfo Holley attacked Tacna in southern Peru with 185,000 men. Peru was anticipating a Chilean attack however and 110,000 Peruvians were on the border in well made fortifications. The Battle of Tacna started off the war in a massive blood lust. For almost two full months the Battle of Tacna raged with thousands being slaughtered. On September 2 the ruins of Tacna would finally fall to Holley. However the massive of casualties had exhausting the Chileans and couldn't pursue.

Though Chile and Argentina had a very long border the mountainous terrain would see only limited action. In Patagonia however 40,000 Chilean troops under General Estanislao del Canto invaded southern Argentina on July 26. The Argentine's didn't have many troops to spare to combat the Chileans and on August 17 lost the Battle of Puerto Deseado to Chile. Logistics in the Patagonian Front were terrible and Chile didn't have a whole lot of extra supplies to send to this backwater theater so after this initial campaign General del Canto was forced to halt more operations for the time being.

The borders between Brazil, Peru, and Colombia were long. These regions however were sparsely populated and would be considered a backwater theater from both sides with far more important fronts to be fought there would rarely be more than 75,000 troops in total here and while the fighting was usually on Brazilian territory, Peru and Colombia knew that they wouldn't be the ones to knock out Brazil.
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
What are the three surviving Central American nations doing in all of this, as well as Mexico and Haiti, seeing as everybody else is involved in a fight to the end.
 
What are the three surviving Central American nations doing in all of this, as well as Mexico and Haiti, seeing as everybody else is involved in a fight to the end.

Mexico is a Bonaparte monarchy and is allied with the Entente. Haiti and and the other central American nations are neutral for the time being at least
 
Northern Theater

The Canadian-American border was the second most heavily fortified and militarized border in the world behind only the Franco-German border. As conscription was implemented by both the US and British Empire and tensions between the two main alliances growing stronger it became even more militarized. By the time of the Assassination of Prince Pedro the US had nearly 1.5 million men from Michigan to Maine while Canada had 600,000 men and Britain 400,000 men. Over the month and a half from the beginning of the May Crisis to the declaration of war between the US and Britain that number had grown to over 2 million American troops against 900,000 Canadians and 750,000 British troops with more British forces arriving almost weekly.



The US's declaration of war against Britain was delivered at 5pm on July 14. Fifteen minutes later American artillery opened up all across the border and would go on almost continuously for twelve hours. At 5am the next day the bombardment abruptly stopped and five separate American invasions began.



It had first been put forth that the invasion of Ontario be made by amphibious assault over Lake Erie. The Great Lakes however were a swarm of of naval warships. Since the late 1800's the US and Canada had had a naval arms race of their own. By the start of the war each side had Great Lakes battleships that, while at sea they wouldn't be much more than slightly more heavy armored cruisers with battleship guns, on freshwater they reigned supreme. The US's Great Lake Fleet had 12 battleships, 18 cruisers, 24 monitors, and around 40 smaller gunboats. America had much more than the lakes to look after however while Canada could focus almost solely on there. That would mean that the Canadian Fleet at the wars start consisted of 16 battleships, 22 cruisers, 30 monitors, and more than 40 smaller gunboats. With these large fleets mainly focused on Lake Erie and Ontario an amphibious invasion was deemed to hazardous and scrapped.



At 5am full General Loyd Wheaton commanding 350,000 men of the US 1st Army began trying to cross St. Clair River both north and south of Lake St. Clair. Lieutenant General Sir William Forbes Gatacre commanded 150,000 Canadian and 100,000 British troops defending against Wheaton. The Battle of St. Clair which the Americans thought would last only a few hours would last forty days and cost over 150,000 casualties for the Americans to move only five miles past Lake St. Clair.



From New York General Jacob H. Smith and the US 2nd Army, also at 350,000, began attempting to cross the Niagara River. Smith and his men would unfortunately suffer just as Wheaton's men did. With 200,000 Canadian and 150,000 British troops under General Paul Methuen defending the Battle of Niagara would go on for two bloody months to acquire only 3 miles of Canadian territory.



General Robert Lee Bullard the US 3rd Army of 450,000 men began crossing the Saint Lawrence. With there being more room to maneuver Bullard and the army would be able to cross the river into Canada. Soon however there were 300,000 Canadian and 350,000 British troops under General Robert Baden-Powell attacked the Americans on July 15 along a 20 mile stretch of land in the Battle of Tincap in attempt to force back the Americans. For thirty-four days the battle would rage but despite initial numerical superiority the Anglo-Canadian forces would only succeed in driving the Americans back one mile from where the battle initially started before exhausting themselves. The Battle of Tincap would end as a stalemate and the US would quickly be moving in reinforcements.



A fourth American invasion was aimed at taking Montreal. The 375,000 strong US 4th Army under General Hunter Liggett crossed the border from New York. As it was across the Canadian Theater the Americans were met by a mass of 250,000 Canadian and 200,000 British troop under Field Marshal Paul Methuen. Just a day after the invasion began the two met in the Battle of Saint-Armand which would last twenty-three days before it ended with the Americans capturing eight miles of territory. The two armies wouldn't see each other in force again until September 27 at the beginning of the Battle of Bedfod.



And finally the final invasion was of New Brunswick by General Joseph T. Dickman and the 200,000 strong 5th Army aimed at moving on Nova Scotia and taking Halifax. Here 185,000 British troops and their commander General Bryan Mahon were given the task of stopping the American advance or talling it foras long as possible. The first place th would be was at the Battle of Waweig which lasted ten days before British retreated to more defensible position at Elmsville. On August 11 the Battle of Elmsville began and would go on until October 1 when the British would finally withdraw.

Theaters of the Americas September 1905
 
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That seems like a pretty slow advance in Canada. With how powerful the US is in this TL, I would expect Canada to be steamrolled.
 
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