Am American Khan...

[Mr_ Bondoc]

In Joseph Needham's book Genghis Khan , the nature of Genghis Khan's power is emphasized by creating an ATL scenario wherein, the American Revolution is not created by the intellectual land-owning gentry and merchant leaders, but is led by an illiterate slave, who by sheer force of will, charisma, and character, leads a rebellion that creates an empire, that at the time of his death stretches from Canada to Brazil, has created a new alphabet, created a new form of warfare, created a free-trade zone in al the territories, insitituted religious freedom throughout the empire, and driven out foreign occupation. Using a POD after 1680, create a scenario, as realistically as possible that could accomodate this ATL...

(Try not to use the Climb the Wind scenario of Pamela Sargent)

 

[Forum Lurker]

Whose foreign occupation must be driven out? That of nations ruled from capitols outside the Western Hemisphere, or that composed of peoples with proximate ancestry from the Western Hemisphere?

 

[Dave Bender]

Driven out foreign occupation

If we are going to drive people out of North America then I think the Aztecs should be the first to go. They would subjugate their neighbors, then use the prisoners for human sacrifice. Hard to imagine a worse group of people to have living next door.

 

[NapoleonXIV]

Aren't Great Man scenarios relegated to ASB? I'm only saying that because this is the first one I've seen here except for one of mine (so long ago)

Actually, I don't see them much in either place. Strange, there are Great Men.

Why do you need a POD? The Great Man is the POD.

This sounds like a unifier of the native Americans, building a coalition of the Plains tribes with what was left of the Eastern Woodland Alliances, like the Iroquois and the Cherokee.

One possiblity is that these groups (meaning mainly the Iroquois here) throw in with the colonists in the Revolution instead of the British as in OTL.

 

[Bill Cameron]

If we are going to drive people out of North America then I think the Aztecs should be the first to go. They would subjugate their neighbors, then use the prisoners for human sacrifice. Hard to imagine a worse group of people to have living next door.

Dave,

Re-read this bit:

Using a POD after 1680...[/b]

At the time the poster is talking about, the Aztecs have been gone for nearly 150 years.


Bill

 

[Dave Bender]

After 1680 A.D.

There is no way the indians of North America are going to defeat the white colonists at this late date. King Philip's war was their best shot, and it was not even close to success. A longer lasting indian war will only result in more dead indians.

 

[Forum Lurker]

It depends on how it's done. If the colonies can be kept separate, and the European armies occupied in killing each other, it might very well be possible to build a state strong enough to resist further encroachment, especially if key resources are discovered or seized. At this point in time, the tremendous wealth of iron in northern Minnesota is untapped, as is the coal in Michigan; between these for industry and strategic control of the Mississippi as a trading center (the first settlement in Louisiana isn't until 1699), an economy capable of holding its own might arise, provided that the Europeans give them time by warring against each other.

 

[NapoleonXIV]

There is no way the indians of North America are going to defeat the white colonists at this late date. King Philip's war was their best shot, and it was not even close to success. A longer lasting indian war will only result in more dead indians.

This is the first of several problems with this scenario. The Eastern Woodland tribes (and the Western Plains as well to a lesser extent) were still being decimated by European diseases and would not start real recovery until much later. The colonists meanwhile, increased daily. The Indians just didn't have the numbers.

Neither, however, did the Mongols in 1200

Let's say this Khan weds the Indians traditional stealth tactics to the cutting edge German rifles. He trains the Indians to be snipers. Teams of three consist of a sharpshooter and two loaders, carrying three rifles. Outlying colonists are the first to go and punitive expeditions, bunched up as musket based warfare demanded, are cut to pieces as they march along. Very quickly, the colonist's area of real control would be much, much reduced.

 

[Bill Cameron]

Why are we all fixating on Indians throwing out Europeans? Re-read the first post.

Bondoc's original question mentioned an illiterate slave becoming the American Khan. He was proposing an American Revolution that wasn't kicked off by the propertied and monied classes but by the lower classes. He's asking if anyone can come with a POD or series of PODs that wold have this Khan unite colonist, Indian, slave, and whatnot to throw out their European masters on a hemispheric scale.

This isn't just about Indians knocking off Europeans.

 

[Faeelin]

But Genghis wasn't a lowly nomad. He was the son of a powerful chieftain, who's family having trouble, yes, but still of import.

 

[Dave Bender]

I'm Confused

unite colonist, Indian, slave, and whatnot to throw out their European masters on a hemispheric scale

Isn't this basically what happened, starting in 1775? Over the next 50 years or so most of the western hemisphere achieved independence from their respective European mother country.
- They already had an alphabet.
- They created an new form of warfare, emphasing small unit tactics.
- Free trade zone within the United States.
- Religeous freedom (primary reason for creation of New England colonies).
- Drove out foreign occupation.

It would take only a small change to add most of Canada to the U.S. Addiing any more territory then this would be difficult, given the primitive travel and communications during this era.

 

[Forum Lurker]

I'll quibble with the religious freedom thing. True, you could be almost any sect of Christian you wanted, and the government wouldn't officially care. That's a far cry from the Mongol absolute indifference to religious matters; the Americans were still indoctrinating Amerindians with Christianity as part of the basic USA cultural package a century after independence.

 

[Bill Cameron]

Isn't this basically what happened, starting in 1775? Over the next 50 years or so most of the western hemisphere achieved independence from their respective European mother country.

Daivd,

No. Re-read the first post again. Bondoc states that the Khan "...leads a rebellion that creates an empire, that at the time of his death stretches from Canada to Brazil..." It's all one polity and not Canada, French Louisianna, unorganized Amerind territories, Mexico, various Central American nations, Brazil, etc.

They already had an alphabet.

Yes, but not a new alphabet they all use.

Free trade zone within the United States.

But not a free trade zone from Quebec to Santa Fe to Vercruz to Caracas to Habana to Rio. That's what Bondoc is suggesting.

Religeous freedom (primary reason for creation of New England colonies).

If you think colonial Massachusetts encouraged religious freedom you've got a lot more reading to do. Again Bondoc is wondering about religious freedom for ALL religions and not christianity or the 'right' sort of christianity.

It would take only a small change to add most of Canada to the U.S. Addiing any more territory then this would be difficult, given the primitive travel and communications during this era.

Yup, but Bondoc has translated the extenet of Genghis' east-west Eurasia spread of conquests to a north-south American one. Add Central America and Brazil, plus all the bits in between to your equation. Can you come up with a POD? I couldn't.


Bill

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Thanks Bill...

Bill- Is hitting the nail on the head. I'm looking for a series of PODs for the ATL that would create a leader, either African-American slave or Native American leader who could duplicate the achievements of Genghis Khan in the Western Hemisphere. Also, I'm trying to be as separate and distinct from Pamela Sargent's novel Climb the Wind . While I think the novel stretched a little credibility, it was certainly more credible than a lot of Harry Harrison's Civil War works. Some PODs that came to mind are:

A) Toussant L'Ouverture, Haitian slave leader is imported to the United States, arriving in Louisiana, instead of Haiti....
B) Shaka Zulu is captured and enslaved , imported to the Americas, arriving by British slave ship into the South....

 

[Othniel]

Well lets go back in time then...

How were the Mongollians founded?

 

[Scarecrow]

isnt there a geographical issue as well? how about a straight Gengis/Mongol-Native American crossover, eg out of the Great Plains comes a large army of Dakota/Lakota, who have horses and guns, and are lead by an enegmatic leader they take conquor the American republic in its early days, chase out the french, spanish, british, etc, and end up conquoring a very large empire. the USA would be like China in the Mongolian empire...

 

[Bill Cameron]

... they take conquor the American republic in its early days...

Sigh... I'm trying Bondoc, I'm trying...

Re-read the original post again.

The American Khan doesn't 'take out' the early American republic because there isn't an early American Republic to take out. Instead, he leads an entirely different American Revolution, one that spreads across the entire hemisphere and leads to the founding of a polity that streches from Qubec to Rio.

We're still fixated on Indian vs. Colonist. That isn't the idea. It's Indian/Slave/Colonist versus European empires. The American Khan could be a slave, an Indian, or even an indentured servant in the colonies.


Bill

 

[Hendryk]

I'll quibble with the religious freedom thing. True, you could be almost any sect of Christian you wanted, and the government wouldn't officially care. That's a far cry from the Mongol absolute indifference to religious matters; the Americans were still indoctrinating Amerindians with Christianity as part of the basic USA cultural package a century after independence.

Indeed. I think it was William of Rubroeck who, upon arriving in Karakorum in 1254, was amazed to find, peacefully coexisting, no fewer than 14 different religions, each with their own houses of worship. Buddhists, Taoists, Muslims, Nestorian Christians, you name it. Such open-mindedness wouldn't be seen in the Western world until... well... one wonders if we've got to that point yet.

 

[Earling]

Well.. I would start with some Pods to bring about political unification of large swathes of the North American continent. Thus if you get 4-5 blocks at war with each other then this American Khan can emulate Ghengis Khan by just becoming king of kings, rather than having to grind his way through every single colonial possession/native tribe in existance.

 

[Melvin Loh]

What about some phenomenally talented leader of mixed black and Indian blood who combines the best of such talented African-American and indigenous personalities of OTL such as Gabriel Prosser, Nat Turner, Metacom, and Little Turtle, but with more accomodationist tendencies towards all other ppl instead of just his own particular race/ethnic group ?

Hmmm, WI the eastern woodlands Indians were as much into using the horse as their western plains cousins came to be ? Maybe throw in a substantial group of black runaways on similar lines to OTL's black Seminoles who become just as talented horsemen and frontier fighters, and you could get the right context for such a messianic minority leader to develop.