Alterntive History Armoured Fighting Vehicles

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MacCaulay

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I just want to say right now that this is the coolest thread in the history of EVER, and not just becaused you put an M-47 turret on a fucking CENTURION CHASSIS.

ANYTHING with a Centurion is BALLS NASTY!!!! :D:D:D
 

Nietzsche

Banned
No offense, but the one on the left looks like a step backward in armoured technology, and the one on the right looks weird, like a Leopard 2 turret mounted on a Merkava or something.
Among other things, yeah, that's where a good bit of it comes from.

The left one is primitive, yes, but the idea in my head was to be Germany's "standard" armored support. A sort of Jerry Centurion.
 
Among other things, yeah, that's where a good bit of it comes from.

The left one is primitive, yes, but the idea in my head was to be Germany's "standard" armored support. A sort of Jerry Centurion.

It isn't the vehicle itself, just the armament. Remember the Germans had seperate tanks for infantry support, the early Pzkpfw IVs. Which is great until you run into an enemy tank. Better in my humble opinion, to give it a real gun if it has a turret. Now if you removed the turret and turned it into a Sturmmörser Panther....:D
 

Cook

Banned
I just want to say right now that this is the coolest thread in the history of EVER, and not just becaused you put an M-47 turret on a fucking CENTURION CHASSIS.

ANYTHING with a Centurion is BALLS NASTY!!!! :D:D:D
That reminds me Mac, while you were away <cough;)>, I visited the Fremantle Army Museum and saw the Centurion tank they have there. They also have a Leopard Mk I, and a Grant M2.
 
Another idea I have for my story, is making a standardized MBT based on both the Leopard 2A6 and the M1A2SEP Abrams. I imagine such a vehicle would retain the same basic shape as both of those, but I'm unsure what such a tank would ultimately look like, or if existing tanks could be modified and brought up to this new standard.

EDIT: I'd also like to see a GAU-19 mounted on the roof. :D
 
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Nietzsche

Banned
It isn't the vehicle itself, just the armament. Remember the Germans had seperate tanks for infantry support, the early Pzkpfw IVs. Which is great until you run into an enemy tank. Better in my humble opinion, to give it a real gun if it has a turret. Now if you removed the turret and turned it into a Sturmmörser Panther....:D

Very true. But, given that the Sturmpanther is meant to be used from the late 40s to...present, infantry can handle -most- aspects of anti-tank warfare in low-tech regions of the earth. It's sort of a Poor Man's Armour.
 
Very true. But, given that the Sturmpanther is meant to be used from the late 40s to...present, infantry can handle -most- aspects of anti-tank warfare in low-tech regions of the earth. It's sort of a Poor Man's Armour.

Ah. In that case, wouldn't it be better to mount a recoiless rifle onto a jeep? Using a vehicle that size doesn't make sense unless one has the logistics to back it up, or it can handle enemy armor as well as support infantry.
 
Ah. In that case, wouldn't it be better to mount a recoiless rifle onto a jeep? Using a vehicle that size doesn't make sense unless one has the logistics to back it up, or it can handle enemy armor as well as support infantry.
Ve Germans do not care if ze size is not proportional!
 
Awesome thread, Claymore. I particularly like your inclusion of AH model tanks, their use adds something to the scenarios you describe, making them feel more real. A proper use of props, basically. I approve of your war gaming efforts, I've been meaning to get into historical war games but my group is primarily focused on science fiction/fantasy settings so I haven't had much luck with that.

In terms of my own contributions to this thread, I suppose I'll be limited since I've not got much model-building capacity right now (nor much free time, sadly), but I can offer a concept inspired by developments in armored warfare in an old ASB TL I did. In that TL, the human powers were fighting an enemy that did not have tanks of its own, but did have a lot of air-craft (which tended to be low-flying) and plenty of troops. So, lots of soft targets, no hard targets and a great need for air defense.

The result was an absence of the traditional, turreted cannon, AFV - and the closest thing they did produce could be described as "flak panzer meets IFV" in that it was intended to operate in conjunction with motorized formations while providing additional air defense. I imagine such a setting would also see some armored car designs featuring AA mounts.

What this led me to consider is the possible evolution of armored warfare in a world where there were no major European conflicts (or where if they did occur they occurred later). Basically, if most experience was gained fighting in colonial conflicts or against irregular forces, what might armored doctrine or mechanized operations have looked like in 1930 or 1940.
 
Haha, you have a point about the mortar. I guess it just makes them small-arms proof and uses up surplus hulls is all.

About the logistics carrier thing; hm, I set myself a difficult task but:

Hm, first, a military might adopt a doctrine that has forward logistics troops closely shadow the combat troops at the 'FBEA' (Forward Edge of the Battle Area) for instantaneous resupply, thus them needing the survivability and maneuverability of an AFV rather than soft-skinned vehicles. This is likely ASB but an armour-loving army with a big budget and AFV maintenance capabilities might equip the poor forward logistics guys with these. Most likely the Western armies: each fighting battalion has it's own log elements, so commanders of armoured units might push for these to be protected too. Unlikely though! :)


Next, another possibility is militaries 'NBC-proofing' their logistics to survive in a nuke-bio-chem environment. It sounds easier to keep your food, equipment and fuel clean and shiny in a metal box in tracks than a canvas box, which is what many army trucks are. :p


Hmm, all things (well most things) are possible I suppose in AH. The NBC proofing sounds intriguing and sounds very much like a thing our Russian friends might do in some mid/post apocalyptic-mad-max sort of way! :)


That describes the military I'm working on for my story pretty well!:)


Ah spoilers! ;)

Another idea I have for my story, is making a standardized MBT based on both the Leopard 2A6 and the M1A2SEP Abrams. I imagine such a vehicle would retain the same basic shape as both of those, but I'm unsure what such a tank would ultimately look like, or if existing tanks could be modified and brought up to this new standard.

EDIT: I'd also like to see a GAU-19 mounted on the roof. :D

Which way round do you see this hybrid heading Leopard 2A6 hull and M1A2SEP turret or the other way round or something else entirely?
 
These are just pixel art, but, I hope you all like them. The one on the right is the Reich's main battle tank. Cobbled together from -many- parts. The one on the left is an Infantry Tank. Basically, heavy direct-fire support.

Weird... slightly retro and yet modern at the same time; the Imperial German markings only adds to the effect. I take it they are supposed to be from different time frames. The Merkava/Leopard 2 thingy seems to have the turret set awfully far back, what's up front?
 
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I just want to say right now that this is the coolest thread in the history of EVER, and not just becaused you put an M-47 turret on a fucking CENTURION CHASSIS.

ANYTHING with a Centurion is BALLS NASTY!!!! :D:D:D

Thank you. I must admit that I too have a soft spot for the ol'Centurion :)
 
Awesome thread, Claymore. I particularly like your inclusion of AH model tanks, their use adds something to the scenarios you describe, making them feel more real. A proper use of props, basically. I approve of your war gaming efforts, I've been meaning to get into historical war games but my group is primarily focused on science fiction/fantasy settings so I haven't had much luck with that.

In terms of my own contributions to this thread, I suppose I'll be limited since I've not got much model-building capacity right now (nor much free time, sadly), but I can offer a concept inspired by developments in armored warfare in an old ASB TL I did. In that TL, the human powers were fighting an enemy that did not have tanks of its own, but did have a lot of air-craft (which tended to be low-flying) and plenty of troops. So, lots of soft targets, no hard targets and a great need for air defense.

The result was an absence of the traditional, turreted cannon, AFV - and the closest thing they did produce could be described as "flak panzer meets IFV" in that it was intended to operate in conjunction with motorized formations while providing additional air defense. I imagine such a setting would also see some armored car designs featuring AA mounts.

What this led me to consider is the possible evolution of armored warfare in a world where there were no major European conflicts (or where if they did occur they occurred later). Basically, if most experience was gained fighting in colonial conflicts or against irregular forces, what might armored doctrine or mechanized operations have looked like in 1930 or 1940.

Thank you :), I have been thinking of kicking this thread off for some time now. Whether I can keep up the production of models with all the great ideas is another matter. My bank manager may also have something to say about that too. :( Fortunately, though I have a large supply of old models from a mispent youth just waiting to be cannibalised! :D

Like it... Any thoughts on type of "Flak Panzer" and/or armoured car and weapons systems?

I suspect the colonial conflict AFV would still ultimately end up with full sized traditional tanks as various interested parties vied for influence and power.
 
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Nietzsche

Banned
Weird... slightly retro and yet modern at the same time; the Imperial German markings only adds to the effect. I take it they are supposed to be from different time frames. The Merkava/Leopard 2 thingy seems to have the turret set awfully far back, what's up front?
The engine is in front, along with other bits of thick, heavy shit to keep the crew as, more or less, safe as possible.
 
Thank you :), I have been thinking of kicking this thread off for some time now. Whether I can keep up the production of models with all the great ideas is another matter. My bank manager may also have something to say about that too. :( Fortunately, though I have a large supply of old models from a mispent youth just waiting to be cannibalised! :D

Well, then I for one am glad of your mis-spent youth as it'll facilitate some more of these brilliant AH projects being put together. As a fellow (although sadly not nearly as skilled) builder of models I can certainly sympathize about the unfortunate constraints life places on one's hobby. Anyways, whatever you do get up to, I'm sure it'll be brilliant. :)

Like it... Any thoughts on type of "Flak Panzer" and/or armoured car and weapons systems?


In terms of the "flak panzer" element I was referring to, I admit I was more inspired by the M42 Duster than by any German design. However, I must admit to a soft spot for the Wirbelwind turret with four 20mm guns, even if the Germans decided a 37mm shell would be more effective.

The time period I had in mind would be the late 1940s through the 1950s, and the idea would be an IFV with AAA capability; the vehicle would have its engine at the front, the turret fairly forward and would feature a rear hatch. Its' purpose would be to provide additional fire power to motorized infantry formations largely mounted in half-tracks. My concept was to have one of these attached to a motorized platoon in half-tracks, serving as either a command or a support vehicle.

With armored car designs, I'm rather less creative. I've got a four-wheeled design based on a pre-WWII U. S. concept for an armored car with a turreted machinegun with a 12mm AA machinegun mounted atop the turret, as well as the general idea that they might make use of open-topped scout cars with heavy weapon mounts. I've always had a thing for six-wheeled and eight-wheeled designs, but nothing really concrete.

I suspect the colonial conflict AFV would still ultimately end up with full sized traditional tanks as various interested parties vied for influence and power.

I agree. However, I do imagine that there'd be more development of armored cars in a front-line role. I said I've got a thing for six-wheeled and eight-wheeled designs, and I think that such designs might receive more attention in such a TL than they did OTLy. For one thing, if most fighting is against irregular or colonial forces then there'd be less incentive towards heavy armor, at least initially.
 
The engine is in front, along with other bits of thick, heavy shit to keep the crew as, more or less, safe as possible.

Indeed. Sort of makes you wonder why there aren't more front-engined MBTs around. The Merkava obviously proves the concept so is it just a traditionalist - that's the way its always been - thing?
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Indeed. Sort of makes you wonder why there aren't more front-engined MBTs around. The Merkava obviously proves the concept so is it just a traditionalist - that's the way its always been - thing?

If you were to put the Merkava up against any other modern MBT, western that is, it'll lose. Keeping the engine in front means that any hit has a good chance of crippling it. It works for Israel because they don't fight enemies with modern tech, and not to mention Israel has a bit of a population shortage. Compared to her neighbors, that is.

I used it because the Empire is mostly into policing, not fighting enemies who can hit at Germany's weight class.
 
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