Alternatives to the V1 & V2 rocket program

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And they did, once they'd seen the Katyusha in action. The problem is, mass-produced rockets (as these would have to be) have fairly poor accuracy.
 
the NAZI spent 40 Billion US Dollars (2012 value) on V1/V2 program !
while V1 only used 4 billion $ or 10%, used V2 36 Billion $ and require over 100000 workers and important resource needed elsewhere.
(source: H.O. Ruppe book "Die Grenzenlosen Dimension der Raumfahrt" page 57, converted on 2012 $ value )

So no V2 program, what Alternative ?
the resource could end up in Aircraft industry => Early and More Me-262 or Jet Bombers.
or the V1 could be improve, there were study and plans to equipped V1 with a "disposable jet-engine" build by Porsche company.
that had increase the flight range and it speed, much more difficult to intercept for RAF fighters.

there is also the option of cheaper rockets
Hermann Oberth made proposition to Wehrmacht of allot cheaper program with a Solid rocket.
but there was the rumor that Oberth was a half jews so he was ignored (a intrigue by Walter Dornberger & Von Braun ?)
also Oberth's daughter was killed in a liquid oxygen plant explosion, what let him to back away from the V2 program.
(source: Oberth oral account about his role in V2 program in german documentary film about his live )

Anti Aircraft missile
there were by the dozen projects of Anti Aircraft missile, for ground or on Fighter aircraft
but all those program had one major problem: the V2 Program under SS and it's drain on resources and workers
(who work literally to death in concentration camps)
now with out a V2 program, could had the Third Reich mass-produce Anti Aircraft missile and regain control of Europe Airspace ?
 
The more types of weapons and vehicles you produce, the less production you can give to each one. Also, there's a limit to how little it can cost to adapt a new weapon to overcome a new defence, and with a lot of types of weapon, that cost is multiplied.
 
Originally Posted by deathscompanion1
The German Logistics system was a joke

I always wondering why people say that.

So: Why?

It was some time extreme chaotic, thanks to NSDAP bureaucracy

some examples

My german granddad had to move to North Africa, to fight on front under Rommel,
Thank in last minute change in Wehrmacht bureaucracy, he end up in Leningrad.
with Tropical equipment in russian winter !:eek:

He survived this only to end up in 6 Army under Paulus in Stalingrad.
here Göring promise Hitler the Luftwaffe could supply them, in realty 6 army was a starving.

Also had the Luftwaffe and Tank divisions of SS and Wehrmacht,
the Problem not to get there petrol/Ammo on time or hardly enough to run there equipment...

the V2 program had also similar insane Logistics system.
the parts were made allover the Third reich and had to be move by Train hundreds of kilometer to Mittelwerk.
what make it a easy prey for US Bombers
 
A type XX1 submarine by 1940 (schnorkel, more batteries, larger, dedicated to underwater operations) would be very useful for the Reich.

Proximy fuses would make bombing of Germany difficult, and would give the artillery capacity to deliver airbursts against enemy infantery.

Replacing the Enigma could be a possibility. However, the problem was not the hardware but the software. Bad habits among German signal personal, leadership etc.

Infrared detectors were used by 1945 and were very useful for tanks on the Eastern front. Maybe some V2 scientists could have introduced IR detectors far earlier?

But in the end Germany faced three enemies it couldn't overcome: the numbers were on the enemies side, lack of natural resources and the blindness of German high command. If the V2 were stopped the resources would probably have been used in a different wasteful and difficult project. The V3? Bigger Maus tanks?
 
superkuf said:
A type XX1 submarine by 1940 (schnorkel, more batteries, larger, dedicated to underwater operations) would be very useful for the Reich.
True. How do you get the technophobic Dönitz to agree?:confused: If you do...:eek::eek::eek:
superkuf said:
Replacing the Enigma could be a possibility. However, the problem was not the hardware but the software. Bad habits among German signal personal, leadership etc.
Agreed. You also have to overcome German certainty Enigma couldn't be broken. (It wouldn't hurt to reduce Dönitz's lunatic chattiness & his insistence on absurd levels of reporting from U-boats.:eek::confused: It also wouldn't hurt to tell Luftwaffe operators to shut up.:rolleyes:)
superkuf said:
If the V2 were stopped the resources would probably have been used in a different wasteful and difficult project.
That really does seem the most likely outcome... They were Nazis, after all.:rolleyes: They're a bit like evil Marx Brothers.:p
 

BlondieBC

Banned
A type XX1 submarine by 1940 (schnorkel, more batteries, larger, dedicated to underwater operations) would be very useful for the Reich.

Proximy fuses would make bombing of Germany difficult, and would give the artillery capacity to deliver airbursts against enemy infantery.

Replacing the Enigma could be a possibility. However, the problem was not the hardware but the software. Bad habits among German signal personal, leadership etc.

Infrared detectors were used by 1945 and were very useful for tanks on the Eastern front. Maybe some V2 scientists could have introduced IR detectors far earlier?

But in the end Germany faced three enemies it couldn't overcome: the numbers were on the enemies side, lack of natural resources and the blindness of German high command. If the V2 were stopped the resources would probably have been used in a different wasteful and difficult project. The V3? Bigger Maus tanks?

While I dearly love German U-boats (look at my sig), Germany greatly buffing their U-boats leading up to WW2 is unlikely and extremely difficult POD. Unlike before WW1, the RN paid a lot of attention to U-boats. The easy to learn, and in many ways correct lessons of WW1 was that once you defeated France and Russia was neutral (or vice versa), the war was won. It is bit strange to me that people call for the Germans to repeat the Kaisers failed strategy of too many resources to the Navy and under funding the army. People like to bash Hitler/Goering, but they got this one right. Build an army/AF to defeat the land opponents first, then worry about funding the navy. It is largely diplomatic failings (would USSR really stay neutral) that undid the strategy. If one believes the USSR would have not attacked the Germans and still would have conducted some trade, then German had WW2 won. If one believes you can't trust Poland, then the entire post Munich strategy was flawed.

Or to put it another way, the Army was about 2 billion marks and the Navy was about 0.5 million marks. The 8 active armies cost about 0.25 billion marks for them, and the associated reserves. To me at least, it is pretty clear that the Central powers win with an 13% bigger German Army and a 50% smaller German navy, even before one considers any potential benefits to the UK/German relations. Simply add a second army in the east either attacking east out of East Prussia or more likely towards Warsaw, a bunch of good effects happen. It is like combining Wiking's Marne TL with many of the benefits of the Conrad turns East. The Germans don't have the gap at the Marne, so they hold the Marne line. They will stall out in this sector due to lack of supplies. And then in the race to the sea with both more Entente forces tied up down south and not transferring units east, they will gain more in the race to the sea. Call it Ypres at minimum and possibly Calais. In the east, the Russian will either fall back to the defensive line and abandon Poland or they will have to divert another full army or maybe two to engage the extra German Army. Either one saves A-H the Galacia disaster. Roll around to May 1915, and the CP take the offensive and never need leave it. And after France and Russia make peace, then you can build a Navy if the British decide to do a Napoleonic type scenario of a never ending war.

People like to talk about Hitler like he had a 50 IQ, and at the end with the stress and drug abuse, maybe he did. Early on though he was intelligent, charismatic, and had a gamblers instincts. He just got victory disease and suffered from the flaws common to strong men. He often tried to setup a "regime defense force" more than a "army to defeat enemies". This is why he had so many divided commands such as SS, LW, and Heer divisions. Or his insanely divided ministers.

Engima was not the real issue as you mention. It was the people using it. Bad signal discipline. Sending messages that should never be sent like entire Army group attack plans for a year by radio.
 
It was some time extreme chaotic, thanks to NSDAP bureaucracy

some examples

My german granddad had to move to North Africa, to fight on front under Rommel,
Thank in last minute change in Wehrmacht bureaucracy, he end up in Leningrad.
with Tropical equipment in russian winter !:eek:

He survived this only to end up in 6 Army under Paulus in Stalingrad.
here Göring promise Hitler the Luftwaffe could supply them, in realty 6 army was a starving.

Also had the Luftwaffe and Tank divisions of SS and Wehrmacht,
the Problem not to get there petrol/Ammo on time or hardly enough to run there equipment...

the V2 program had also similar insane Logistics system.
the parts were made allover the Third reich and had to be move by Train hundreds of kilometer to Mittelwerk.
what make it a easy prey for US Bombers

Sorry, but i do not think, that your examples proving that German logistics was a joke - well, most of the problems you mention have nothing or barely do with logistics at all (at least in the classical sense).

In the case of your grandad's, i think, it have to be a reason for that quick allocation: from the special knowledge to the urgent need of warm bodies on that sector (in ww1, after the italian dow, many lower level AH officer tought that the "brass" contains only dorks, since they got rerouted to italy sometimes from galicia while the upper echelon congratulated themselves, that they could get the troops for the front - matter of perspective).
Regarding his uniform and equipment, no suprise, that in a "last minute travel" he did not get new - but in his destination, i think, he got it issued, right?

The Stalingrad air bridge, well, up to that point, no one even tried to supply troops trough air besides the germans. And since they succeded it Demyansk (and that was anything, but logistical joke!), they tried it again - but in this case, i blame Göring, and his bragging habits.

The armoured divisions of the WH, WSS, LW is not logistical issue, but system failures: everyone built their little empires.
And the interesting thing: despite the "common knowledge" ammo/petrol/food shortages due logistical failures by the germans were - lets say not that common.

In case of the V2 issue, its not a logistic problem - and its not even bad, either, if you concentrate your production efforts in one location, it makes a delicious target (Peenemünde, khm). (And you will always depend on transportation, no matter how you concentrate your production).

The allied attack on german transportation (train network mostly) was logical - indirect - way to hamper german warmaking capabilities.
Again: no matter what you do, you always have to transport! The question is, could you manage to do it? Could you overcome the problems?
 

J.D.Ward

Donor
What happens if Hitler learns the opposite lesson from his experience of gas in the First World War ?

He sees it as the weapon of the future. Germany must surpass its enemies in the production and use of poison gas. What are the results?
 
What happens if Hitler learns the opposite lesson from his experience of gas in the First World War ?

He sees it as the weapon of the future. Germany must surpass its enemies in the production and use of poison gas. What are the results?
If memory serves, Hitler DID have fairly large stocks of poision gas OTL. The reason he did NOT use it, is because he was afraid of how the US/UK would retaliate. UK had fairly large stocks too I believe, and the US the means to deliver it.
 
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