Alternatives to Antisemitism ?

[NoMommsen]

Antisemitism - or to be more percise : hate for jews was THE brand mark of Nazism/Hitlerism, the very core to the whole hotpot of 'ideology' Hitler and his followers produced. If there were inconsistencies : fault of the jews, ofc.
Antisemitism WAS all around the globe quite 'popular' after WW I, for rcistic views as well as for longer standing 'reasons', how silly and invented ("Protocolls of the The Elder of Zion" i.e.) they may have been. What made it 'special' in Nazism was that Hitler was or went completly mad about it.
However, the antisemitism was also an important part of their propaganda, as it delivered the ultimate scapegoat for everything : the loss of WW I, the inflation, the reparations, the Great Depressions, the communists, the capitalists, that it rained yesterday - everything unwanted the fault of the jews.

I just wonder and would like to ask you too, if there could have been an even or almost even effective, propagandistic alternative for the 'scapegoat for everything' on instead of the jews ?

 

[Wendigo]

There aren't really any alternatives that can be made out to be a satanic global force of evil that was responsible for everything bad in recent bistory (WW1, Depression etc).

At least not any group the Nazis didn't already hate. Freemasons, Communists, Socialists etc.

Also the primary reason why the Nazi Party and its leadership had such utter contempt for Jews wasn't because they needed a scapegoat and Jews were merely a convenient target. They hated Jews because they GENUINELY with every fiber of their being believed they were a malevolent subhuman force intent on destroying the Aryan Race through any means.

Himmler:

Anti-Semitism is exactly the same as delousing. Getting rid of lice is not a question of ideology, it is a matter of cleanliness. In just this same way anti-Semitism for us has not been a question of ideology but a matter of cleanliness.

Goebbels:

Every Jew is our enemy in this historic struggle, regardless of whether he vegetates in a Polish ghetto or carries on his parasitic existence in Berlin or Hamburg or blows the trumpets of war in New York or Washington. All Jews by virtue of their birth and their race are part of an international conspiracy against National Socialist Germany. They want its defeat and annihilation, and do all in their power to bring it about.

The Jews are a parasitic race that feeds like a foul fungus on the cultures of healthy but ignorant peoples. There is only one effective measure: cut them out.

Hitler:

The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.

 

[NoMommsen]

At least not any group the Nazis didn't already hate. Freemasons, Communists, Socialists etc.

who they hated 'cause they were either infiltrated and corrupted by the jews (Freemasons) or outright produced by jews (Rothschilds, tovarich Bronstein i.e.).

... could the Freemasons alone take the role of the jews in Nazism ? (... with their (sometimes) assumed history back to egypt and even further to Atlantis)

edit : (was still writing before the second part of your post ;-) )
I agree, that the OTL Nazis WERE mad antisemits not only for needing a scapegoat.
BUT
the scapegoat-thing, gave them a pretty easy for 'the man on the streets' understandable reason for their own misgivings, for every man on the streets.

Other than that : if Hitler would have declared someone else as the well of all evil, I assume antisemitism wouldn't have played such a prominent role also in other top-Nazis minds or at least speaches.

 

[sloreck]

The problem is that the other groups the Nazis had on their shit list were considered to be Jewish controlled or at least affiliated: Communisits/Socialists (all forms of Marxist), Freemasons, capitalists, etc. Other ethnic groups such as Slavs, Roma (gypsies) were untermenschen and to be disposed of and/or enslaved, they were seen as "pests", but not behind a laundry list of plots and schemes. Not just the Nazis, but traditional conservatives and even non-Germans and non-Aryans could get on board with antisemitism which had been around a long time. One of the ironies was the willing cooperation of Baltic populations, and many Poles, Ukranians, and Byelorussians in hunting down Jews for the Nazis when they themselves were or would be next on the list.

Having said all that the NSDAP could have gone after Marxists, Freemasons, capitalism without the extreme antisemitism. Would that have been as effective in getting them the support they needed to be put in a position where they could seize power - not so sure.

 

[Wendigo]

... could the Freemasons alone take the role of the jews in Nazism ? (... with their (sometimes) assumed history back to egypt and even further to Atlantis)

Highly unlikely in my opinion.

The Nazi Party, Hitler and his fellow fanatics couldn't turn their hatred and racism off and on like a switch. Especially since from the very start Jews WERE the main enemy in their eyes. To turn their contempt to Freemasons would make not as virulently anti semitic. Which would mean making them do a 180 in their personal/ideological beliefs. Essentially making them Not-zis.

 

[Wendigo]

The problem is that the other groups the Nazis had on their shit list were considered to be Jewish controlled or at least affiliated: Communisits/Socialists (all forms of Marxist), Freemasons, capitalists, etc. Other ethnic groups such as Slavs, Roma (gypsies) were untermenschen and to be disposed of and/or enslaved, they were seen as "pests", but not behind a laundry list of plots and schemes. Not just the Nazis, but traditional conservatives and even non-Germans and non-Aryans could get on board with antisemitism which had been around a long time. One of the ironies was the willing cooperation of Baltic populations, and many Poles, Ukranians, and Byelorussians in hunting down Jews for the Nazis when they themselves were or would be next on the list.

Having said all that the NSDAP could have gone after Marxists, Freemasons, capitalism without the extreme antisemitism. Would that have been as effective in getting them the support they needed to be put in a position where they could seize power - not so sure.

Plus how many Freemasons were there even in Europe?

In comparison there were around 9.5 million Jews in Nazi occupied Europe at its peak (already dead or scheduled to be). I can't see the Reich putting Freemasons in gas chambers by the thousands. They did kill a small number in the concentration camps but obviously their main killing effort was towards the Jews, then Slavs. They built literal murder factories intended solely for wiping out every Jew down to the last infant. You can't change that without changing Hitler.

Another factor is that no one is born a Freemason. It's a club. The Nazis were obsessed with race and racial struggle and believed that the Aryan Race had to eliminate the Jewish race or risk being exterminated. You can't so easily replace a racial enemy with a mere political/social one when said organisation has racism as its foundation. Which is why they sent their lower tier enemies to concentration camps instead of straight to the gas chamber. Hitler and his inner circle simply didn't see the homeless, prostitutes, vagrants, Jehovah's Witnesses etc as large a threat as the Jews.

 

[NoMommsen]

Highly unlikely in my opinion.

The Nazi Party, Hitler and his fellow fanatics couldn't turn their hatred and racism off and on like a switch. Especially since from the very start Jews WERE the main enemy in their eyes. To turn their contempt to Freemasons would make not as virulently anti semitic. Which would mean making them do a 180 in their personal/ideological beliefs. Essentially making them Not-zis.

I don't say they should/would change their main object of hate. What I propose is, that from the very start this is some other group.

Other than that they would stay 'just' as antisemitic as the rest of the world, maybe a bit more, as i.e. the Freemasons may have caused judaism (Moses : agent of ancient atlanteans corrupting the hebrews).

And about 'Not-Zis', lets take Nazism as a kind of Fascism with 'special interest' in some alleged super-evil enemy of german-kind (btw : racism was as well popular around the world at that time).

Plus how many Freemasons were there even in Europe?

In comparison there were around 9.5 million Jews in Nazi occupied Europe at its peak (already dead or scheduled to be). I can't see the Reich putting Freemasons in gas chambers by the thousands. They did kill a small number in the concentration camps but obviously their main killing effort was towards the Jews, then Slavs. They built literal murder factories intended solely for wiping out every Jew down to the last infant. You can't change that without changing Hitler.

Another factor is that no one is born a Freemason. It's a club. The Nazis were obsessed with race and racial struggle and believed that the Aryan Race had to eliminate the Jewish race or risk being exterminated. You can't so easily replace a racial enemy with a mere political/social one when said organisation has racism as its foundation. Which is why they sent their lower tier enemies to concentration camps instead of straight to the gas chamber. Hitler and his inner circle simply didn't see the homeless, prostitutes, vagrants, Jehovah's Witnesses etc as large a threat as the Jews.

Yes, Freemasons are not many around the globe, BUT many Freemasons are in important positions around the globe. Having an enemy not as numerous could spare a lot of touble in eliminating him. And yes : Freemason ARE 'only' a social group with every member of whatever origin and belief can enter on free will. BUT it could as mad as with antisemitism be argued, that their 'secret leaders' maybe descendants or ... some kind of race/tribe/whatever as well.

IMO the main reason for racial madness of killing factories of the Nazis WAS the antisemitism. With some 'smaller' enemy no need for them.

Another enemy than the numerous jews could 'tone down' the whole racism and antisemitism to 'normal standards' of the time.

You can't change that without changing Hitler.

as we know him from OTL. But Hitler wasn't born an antisemit, noone is.

 

[SeanPdineen]

Not even "Inferior" People with disabilities? As a wheelchair user I fear a t4 program on an international scale

 

[Wendigo]

Not even "Inferior" People with disabilities? As a wheelchair user I fear a t4 program on an international scale

I may be wrong but the focus was more on the mentally disabled/ill. Simply being in a wheelchair wasn't severe enough to be euthanized. There were plenty of amputees in Germany as a result of WW1 and the fighting going on in Africa and the East but they weren't euthanized like the mentally retarded and the incurably sick. The Reich DID have standards. Insane standards but standards nonetheless.

Also it was on an international scale. The Reich kill disabled in Germany, Poland, and the USSR.

 

[SeanPdineen]

Mengele thought the program would expand to any non healthy non ayrans

 

[Wendigo]

Mengele thought the program would expand to any non healthy non ayrans

The OP isn't asking who the Nazis target primarily AFTER the Jews are gone. He's asking who they target primarily INSTEAD of the Jews.

 

[SeanPdineen]

indeed sorry

 

[MortimerWClankitybritches]

Hmm...its a bit of a stretch but I think its very slightly possible that antipathy for Britain could supplant the "has been leading an evil anti-german conspiracy for centuries and plots to exterminate the german people" factor of nazi antisemitism. Basically what Ribbentrop ended up believing but on a national scale. As for how this would come about, perhaps Britain inflicts (or tries to inflict) more severe punishment after WW1 and continues with a decidedly more anti-german policy in the decade afterwards. I would say the main obstacle is the anglophilia of Hitler, and the difficulty in causing anti-british sentiment to become enough of a keystone of populist movements in germany for Hitler and the Nazis to adopt it as a central issue. Perhaps getting a return of the lost german imperial posessions and annexing british ones will replace Lebensraum as the main war aim, with the native inhabitants replacing the slavs as the planned victims of wholesale enslavement/extermination.

Obviously this in turn will result in Britain (and France) being far less likely to engage in appeasement, and due to the lack of Britons in germany would result in no organised persecution or extermination so it would utterly transform how World War 2 goes (if it even happens in this scenario) to say the least. Even in this scenario though, I cant see how antisemitism would not still be a key nazi belief.

 

[MERRICA]

You COULD ( most likely improbable) have the Nazis regard the Jews of central and eastern Europe that speak Yiddish as "Germanic"( as the language was a German dialect.). And you COULD have the Nazis see the French as they had seen the Slavs, as subhuman beings who needed to be exterminated. Of course, this would result in France and Britain being far less in favor of appeasement possibly butterflying away WW2 as we know it.

 

[Have Blue-117]

I believe their focus on the Jews IIRC was a result of, or at least partly memories of the spartakist uprisings, because the leaders of the spartakist movement were mostly Jews and Jews have historically been heavily involved in leftist movements to a degree. Communist jews attempting a revolutionary takeover is good propaganda material for the Nazis.

 

[JamesG]

I believe their focus on the Jews IIRC was a result of, or at least partly memories of the spartakist uprisings, because the leaders of the spartakist movement were mostly Jews and Jews have historically been heavily involved in leftist movements to a degree. Communist jews attempting a revolutionary takeover is good propaganda material for the Nazis.

That's like saying US police shootings of black men is in response to the 92 LA riots. Just like current American race relations are founded on 200 odd years of slavery, followed by violence and oppression, Nazism was just another point on the timeline of German (and European) antisemitism going back literally centuries.

I picked my example in repsonse to your location.

EDIT: Re-reading that, it sounds like I'm calling you a Nazi apoligist, and that's not what I'm trying to do. My point is that I think you are underestimating the (very) long-standing German cultural tendency towards anti-semitism.

 

[Emperor Julian]

You'd need to have a much earlier POD to make there be a larger ethnic minority in Germany that could become the primary scapegoat instead.

 

[NoMommsen]

... the (very) long-standing German cultural tendency towards anti-semitism.

I think the same counts for i.e. french, polish, russian antisemitism ("pogrom" is a russian word).

 

[NoMommsen]

@MortimerWClankitybritches and @MERRICA
Britain would fit in that it is 'globally active' for centuries, making it a possible source of "all the evil" of the current world.

Though it could make things for racism somewhat messy, as of their 'germanic, anglo-saxon' origin. Same counts for the french with their origins of the clearly germanic 'Francs' mingled later with some 'West Goths' elements.

But couldn't the racial madness (even of Hitler, even though there might/would still be a strong racial compound, but maybe more focused on pro-Aryan than anti-Jew stance) been avoided, if he would have taken a 'cultural' stigmata to jump on ?
The argueing of @MERRICA with Yiddish as a mainly german language is interesting. Stretching it even further, than an assumed anti-brits position :
bring them (and the regions they live in) into the german empire as their language shows they are german ?

 

[Timaeus]

Anti-French sentiment, maybe?