Alternative to Alexander for Auchinleck, in 1942?

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TFSmith121

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Nye or Paget

Nye or Paget

If Malaya holds, the IJA offensive into Burma is unlikely, so have Alexander be the GOC in Malaya.

Move Auchinleck to 8th Army to replace Ritchie and bring Nye in as theater commander, or keep Auchinleck as theater commander and bring Montgomery or Paget in as 8th Army commander.

Best,
 
Slim?

Depends on when you appoint him. Slim (and not Alexander) was the bloke who got BurCorps out of Burma, in what is still an epic fighting retreat. The highest compliment I can pay to Slim is that according to the last biography of him that I've read ('Uncle Bill', by Russell Miller, which I highly recommend) when the men saw him on the retreat, despite their ragged uniforms, despite their poor physical shape, despite the fact that they hadn't been able to shave or bathe in days and looked terrible - they tried to march in step and look as if they were on parade. That moves me to tears.
Hmm. I hadn't realised Slim was already in Burma in 1942. If he was still sent to Burma in this timeline, then he's probably going to be stuck there for the next few years (well, he might get into Thailand and maybe French Indochina at some point), unless Churchill wants an American in Burma (giving Churchill a chance to rotate Slim off to some other theatre)...
Actually, assuming the Americans make the fuss that they did in the Original Timeline about getting supplies to Chiang, might there be a case for some Americans going into Burma, and having an officer (second to Alexander) meaning Slim goes elsewhere?
 
Nye & Paget

Nye or Paget

If Malaya holds, the IJA offensive into Burma is unlikely, so have Alexander be the GOC in Malaya.

Move Auchinleck to 8th Army to replace Ritchie and bring Nye in as theater commander, or keep Auchinleck as theater commander and bring Montgomery or Paget in as 8th Army commander.

Best,
I can't see Alan Brooke wanting to let Nye go, if he relied on him half as much as the Wikipedia page seems to suggest.
Paget looks interesting. Churchill refers to Paget's 'skill and resolution' during the Norway campaign in his memoirs, and he seems to have ended up in the position of the Middle East commander later in the war in the original timeline. Original timeline Paget seems to have been in charge of 'Home Forces' in 1942, but with the threat of invasion receding by mid 1942, it might be possible to move him.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Nye has always struck me as impressive,

I can't see Alan Brooke wanting to let Nye go, if he relied on him half as much as the Wikipedia page seems to suggest. Paget looks interesting. Churchill refers to Paget's 'skill and resolution' during the Norway campaign in his memoirs, and he seems to have ended up in the position of the Middle East commander later in the war in the original timeline. Original timeline Paget seems to have been in charge of 'Home Forces' in 1942, but with the threat of invasion receding by mid 1942, it might be possible to move him.

Nye has always struck me as impressive, and private soldier to VCIGS is unique, I think; certainly could have handled a theater... certainly about the least "typical" British full general in the conflict, even more so than Slim.

Nye replacing Dill, rather than Brooke, would be interesting; I'd expect he'd get along better with the Americans than Brooke ever did - seems more daring, as well.

Paget is another who gets short shrift; essentially, he turned what had been a defense force (Home Forces) into what became 21st Army Group; his reward was to get BTE.

Nye as CIGs, and Paget as GOC, 21st AG, would be interesting alternatives to Brooke and Montgomery in 1943-45, obviously.;)

Best,
 
Why are you putting Montgomery into a staff role, it would be an absolute disaster, unless it was under Brooke who was about the only one able to control him.

Perhaps swap Richie and Montgomery's roles?

What has Jumbo Wilson done to offend in this time line?
 
El Halfa and second El Alamein

Supposing Auchinleck is 'demoted' to commander of the 8th Army in mid-1942, are El Halfa and second El Alamein likely to be fought as approximately in the original time or are there innovations (or tactics/strategy) that Montgomery used in the original timeline that it would never have occurred to Auchinleck to employ (or which would have been rapidly dismissed if such thoughts did arise) had he been fighting those battles?
 
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Supposing Auchinleck is 'demoted' to commander of the 8th Army in mid-1942, are El Halfa and second El Alamein likely to be fought as approximately in the original time or are there innovations (or tactics/strategy) that Montgomery used in the original timeline that it would never have occurred to Auchinleck to employ (or which would have been rapidly dismissed if such thoughts did arise) had he been fighting those battles?

This is a massively controversial area. Monty has often been accused of stealing the Auk's battle plan and I really don't think that this is fair. Both men saw that Alam Halfa ridge was the key to the Alamein position in the event that Rommel made one of his characteristic flanking movements. However it was Monty who decided to move 44th Division from the Delta and onto the ridge and it was Monty who decided (correctly) that the armour was not to be loosed onto the Germans, as the silly sods would just make exactly the same mistake that they always did and charge straight into an '88mm ambush.
I have read that the Auk was planning to meet Rommel's attack by using his armour in a series of defensive harrying actions - this is mentioned in Dorman-Smith's infamous 'Appreciation of the Situation in the Desert' written on 27th July 1942. This has been mentioned as being brilliant. I find it deeply suspect. It doesn't mention Alam Halfa once and it contains the line "This mobile wing must be well trained in harassing defensive technique." in the part about meeting Rommel's Southern attack. I need to do some more research on this (Nigel Hamilton is naturally scathing about this plan, but he can be a bit too vehement in his dislike of the Auk at times) but I have a feeling that the Auk would have seen his armour get pointlessly mauled. Again.
 
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Churchill and Auchinleck

Hmm. I've been reading the pertinent Churchill volume for the period The Hinge of Fate, and although Churchill seems to me to have been prepared to leave Auchinleck where he was in July, 1942 - he talks in notes for a meeting dated July 20, of the future as if Auchinleck is going to be in command in Egypt for some time - Churchill seems to have decided to remove him almost overnight once he arrived in Cairo in early August. I don't know if someone said something to him there or something else happened. The only thing I've picked up on so far which might have put Churchill's back up, is a mention Churchill makes of one 'General Corbett' apparently assuming that he was about to be in charge of the Eighth Army. It rather looks as if Auchinleck might have told Corbett that this was going to be the case without checking if this would be okay with Churchill first...

NB
It also looks like 'Middle East' command was split for a time from August 1942 to early 1943 - apparently Persia and Iraq were separated off into own little area, 'Middle East', separate from Syria/Egypt/etc, 'Near East'. Unless there's a good reason for butterflying that, in August 1942, Churchill ought to actually be looking for:
  • Commander, Middle East (Persia & Iraq)
  • Commander, Near East (Syria/Egypt/etc)
  • Commander, Eighth Army
 
Auchinleck & Armour?

This is a massively controversial area. Monty has often been accused of stealing the Auk's battle plan and I really don't think that this is fair. Both men saw that Alam Halfa ridge was the key to the Alamein position in the event that Rommel made one of his characteristic flanking movements. However it was Monty who decided to move 44th Division from the Delta and onto the ridge and it was Monty who decided (correctly) that the armour was not to be loosed onto the Germans, as the silly sods would just make exactly the same mistake that they always did and charge straight into an '88mm ambush.
I have read that the Auk was planning to meet Rommel's attack by using his armour in a series of defensive harrying actions - this is mentioned in Dorman-Smith's infamous 'Appreciation of the Situation in the Desert' written on 27th July 1942. This has been mentioned as being brilliant. I find it deeply suspect. It doesn't mention Alam Halfa once and it contains the line "This mobile wing must be well trained in harassing defensive technique." in the part about meeting Rommel's Southern attack. I need to do some more research on this (Nigel Hamilton is naturally scathing about this plan, but he can be a bit too vehement in his dislike of the Auk at times) but I have a feeling that the Auk would have seen his armour get pointlessly mauled. Again.
Any progress?
 
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Any progress?

According to Niall Barr in Pendulum of War, Auchinleck's defensive plans for Alam Halfa created by Dorman Smith were for a "Modern Defensive Battle" which involved thinning out the front line infantry, making them mobile with motor transport, with several alternative positions to fall back to.

Might have been great in theory and on a mapboard but in practice likely to be a disaster, as everything has to go right:
correctly identify Rommel's main thrust lines
decide promptly on action
communicate that down to the frontline troops;
and execute the correct manoeuvre, at the right time.

IIRC the New Zealand Official History is scathing about the practicality of the plan, and the relief of the troops when it was scrapped and replaced by Montgomery's plan - frontline infantry at full strength, all round defensive positions and transport sent to the rear. This however could have been a disaster if Rommel had broken through, or the 8th Army commander lost his nerve.

As to Third Alamein under Auchinleck, I've not seen any plans. Remember however his conduct of First Alamein, alternating thrusts focussed on Italian units, which was partly successful. However it ended in a stalemate with casualties almost as high as the crushing victory of Third Alamein.
 
Any progress?

Correlli Barnett's The Desert Generals remains the broken reed that I've always thought it was. The first part isn't bad, but he's almost demented in his hatred of Monty. The best that he gets to talking about the Auk's plan is, again, Dorman-Smith's Appreciation, with its mention of the mobile wing with 'defensive harrying techniques', which sounds like yet more misuse of the armour.
Now, according to Nigel Hamilton in Monty - the Making of a General the operational orders of 13th Corps on 29th July (before the Auk was replaced) mentions that any German attack would be met by mobile battle groups, making the best use of fluidity and mobility. If true this was madness - Rommel loved such battles as he always had a far better grip on his men then the Auk ever did.
I'd like to point out that Monty, unpleasant and egotistical as he could be, at least kept a far better handle on his men than the Auk did and prevented his armour from haring off on wild chases into 88mm gun lines whilst ignoring the infantry.
 
Correlli Barnett's The Desert Generals remains the broken reed that I've always thought it was. The first part isn't bad, but he's almost demented in his hatred of Monty.

Yeah, the man hated his guts. How he came to it I do not know. One would have thought Monty was the worst general ever...
 
Consequences of Auchinleck?

So if Auchinleck is in direct command of the 8th Army, in the autumn of 1942, when the UK tries to go on the offensive, unless he's been ordered to do otherwise, he probably does something ineffective with the armour, and possibly obtains a stalemate result, with Rommel able to maintain his position?
 
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So if Auchinleck is in direct command of the 8th Army, in the autumn of 1942, when the UK tries to go on the offensive, unless he's been ordered to do otherwise, he probably does something ineffective with the armour, and possibly obtains a stalemate result, with Rommel able to maintain his position?

Not really

The key difference will be Alam Halfa, when Rommel attacks at the end of August. Under Auchinleck the British will fight this as a mobile battle, and it will probably turn into a re-run of First Alamein.

Worst case for the British is loss of much of their armour and a thrust by Rommel's armour towards Cairo. If Auchinleck held his nerve, Rommel's lack of fuel would cause the battle to turn into slugging match with alternate attacks from both sides ending up with significant casualties on both sides and not much change in the front line.

The extra losses will cause a delay in the next British attack, probably delaying it until after Torch. This might also trigger Auchinleck's replacement. If not, Torch might cause Rommel to retire westward and eliminate Third Alamein - next battle might be on the Egyptian Frontier, a rerun of Crusader (the most confusing battle in Word War 2).
 
Apparently the Auk explained his plans to Churchill when he arrived in Egypt and was not at all convincing, even to one of his own staff officers. I really, really, doubt that the Auk would have been left in charge of 8th Army. Worse, he wanted to appoint Corbett as commander of 8th Army. Man was a moron.
 
Foreign Options?

I've been doing some more reading, and came across the name of General Marie-Pierre Kœnig. The troops Kœnig led at Bir Hakeim in May/June 1942 apparently impressed even the Germans, and like Gott, whom Churchill in the original timeline had earmarked to replace Ritchie before Gott's death, Kœnig was a man who had been in North Africa, fighting alongside or in the Eighth Army.
If Churchill is prepared to consider foreign/allied options, and Montgomery and Gott are unavailable, would Kœnig be plausible for the Eighth Army command?
Or would communication problems (assuming he's not fluent in English) rule him out?
 
Plus there is no chance that Alan Brooke would agree to a junior French officer commanding such a large British/Commonwealth force.
 
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