Alternative Soviet Navy during World War II.

[Aley]

Most of which were obsolete which is why the USSR built more tanks and artillery the entire war. What the Russians need are tanks, planes and artillery to stop the Germans. What it doesn't need are big, expensive ships that cost it a lot of manpower and money that can be used better on the front lines against the Germans.

Yes, but where to get new ones? T-34 and KV were developed before the war and at the earlier of the building can not be trusted. And most important: the problem was not that the majority of them were out of date, but the fact that almost all thrown on the western border due to lack of fuel. Well, it would be more tanks, so they went over to the Germans.

 

[Johnrankins]

Yes, but where to get new ones? T-34 and KV were developed before the war and at the earlier of the building can not be trusted. And most important: the problem was not that the majority of them were out of date, but the fact that almost all thrown on the western border due to lack of fuel. Well, it would be more tanks, so they went over to the Germans.

Ships help the USSR almost not at all during WWII. Germany was not a naval power and the USSR does not have a large coastline for its size. What it has is a large landmass and a lot of Nazi troops heeding its way. Tanks, planes and artillery were being built the ENTIRE war. You make it sound like the USSR stopped making tanks when it was invaded and relied on just its pre-war weaponry. Any men and money wasted on ships is men and money that can't be used to build tanks, artillery or planes. The smartest thing for Stalin to do is to sell the ships so he has the men and money to build the more important tanks, planes and artillery instead of manning ships and ship maintenance.

 

[Aley]

Ships help the USSR almost not at all during WWII. Germany was not a naval power and the USSR does not have a large coastline for its size. What it has is a large landmass and a lot of Nazi troops heeding its way. Tanks, planes and artillery were being built the ENTIRE war. You make it sound like the USSR stopped making tanks when it was invaded and relied on just its pre-war weaponry. Any men and money wasted on ships is men and money that can't be used to build tanks, artillery or planes. The smartest thing for Stalin to do is to sell the ships so he has the men and money to build the more important tanks, planes and artillery instead of manning ships and ship maintenance.

Not exactly. Fleet of the Soviet Union could help with the supply of troops to Moonzund islands in the Baltic and in the besieged Sevastopol on the Black Sea. In real history, these strategic positions have been lost, and in fact they are pinned down by German forces besieging them.
Tank production of the USSR did not stop, although in 1941-1942 were evacuated to Siberia plants could not yet give a lot of products. When the war was halted construction of large warships, with the exception of those who were in the highest availability. In the alternative, my situation is the same.
The Navy has played a huge role in the siege of Leningrad, if you look at the map, you can see that the Germans had stopped there, where drifted shells of heavy naval guns.
And in the Pacific and in the North, the Soviet Union also has extensive coastline?
And to whom Stalin could sell the ships trapped in the Gulf and the Black Sea? Germans and Romanians?
Unfortunately, the situation in which the sailors went on land front has led to the fact that when, at the end of the war, the Soviet fleet was able to act, to do so was not a coma. Ships lost skilled, went to the front and there perished.

 

[Johnrankins]

Not exactly. Fleet of the Soviet Union could help with the supply of troops to Moonzund islands in the Baltic and in the besieged Sevastopol on the Black Sea. In real history, these strategic positions have been lost, and in fact they are pinned down by German forces besieging them.
Tank production of the USSR did not stop, although in 1941-1942 were evacuated to Siberia plants could not yet give a lot of products. When the war was halted construction of large warships, with the exception of those who were in the highest availability. In the alternative, my situation is the same.
The Navy has played a huge role in the siege of Leningrad, if you look at the map, you can see that the Germans had stopped there, where drifted shells of heavy naval guns.
And in the Pacific and in the North, the Soviet Union also has extensive coastline?
And to whom Stalin could sell the ships trapped in the Gulf and the Black Sea? Germans and Romanians?
Unfortunately, the situation in which the sailors went on land front has led to the fact that when, at the end of the war, the Soviet fleet was able to act, to do so was not a coma. Ships lost skilled, went to the front andthere perished.

It was very marginal and of little importance. You might save a handful of coastal cities but it would be at the expense of dozens more in the interior. The fact is ships are NOT free or even close. Building warships
makes things worse not better for the USSR as it is wasting resources that can be used to build more important weaponry. Even letting the ships rust in the Gulf and Black sea is probably than wasting the men and manpower manning and maintaining them.

 

[Vjacheslav Malyshev]

Yes, but where to get new ones? T-34 and KV were developed before the war and at the earlier of the building can not be trusted. And most important: the problem was not that the majority of them were out of date, but the fact that almost all thrown on the western border due to lack of fuel. Well, it would be more tanks, so they went over to the Germans.

Hence the reason for planning to build the T-34M and the KV-3.

 

[Aley]

Hence the reason for planning to build the T-34M and the KV-3.

By the beginning of the war, they have not been designed. But the Soviet Union had on June 22, 1941 - 1700 T-34, KV-1 and 2. Assume that the KV-2 only self-propelled gun to destroy the fortifications, and not a tank, but the tank 23000 older models would be enough to crush any army. That's just the fuel was not.

 

[Aley]

It was very marginal and of little importance. You might save a handful of coastal cities but it would be at the expense of dozens more in the interior. The fact is ships are NOT free or even close. Building warships
makes things worse not better for the USSR as it is wasting resources that can be used to build more important weaponry. Even letting the ships rust in the Gulf and Black sea is probably than wasting the men and manpower manning and maintaining them.

I'll explain that the Germans possessed the Baltic and Black seas, supplying its troops captured through ports. One port of Riga was a major transshipment point. And the fact that the Germans were driven around the Baltic Sea iron ore from Sweden, does not matter?
The Soviet Navy was unable to cut the German communications, first because of the shock caused by the rapid advance of the German troops and the loss of bases, and then because of lost valuable specialists.
According to my calculations, it is very rough, even not very skilled, but the aggressive actions of the Soviet Navy would cut the war for three months, and it would save hundreds of thousands of lives. That's not enough?

 

[Vjacheslav Malyshev]

By the beginning of the war, they have not been designed. But the Soviet Union had on June 22, 1941 - 1700 T-34, KV-1 and 2. Assume that the KV-2 only self-propelled gun to destroy the fortifications, and not a tank, but the tank 23000 older models would be enough to crush any army. That's just the fuel was not.

They were designed, here are the production plans for 1941 before Barbarossa. The last T-34 was going to be built in September of 1941.

 

[Aley]

They were designed, here are the production plans for 1941 before Barbarossa. The last T-34 was going to be built in September of 1941.

So that's the plan. In Russia plans are the strongest adjustments. Calculations, as you can see, is only approximate dates. In reality, the T-34M was ready only by the middle of 1943 and was not put into production, having already conceded the German "Panther". Tank KV-3 was too heavy, giving the Reliability chassis even the KV-1, which is also not reliable, and in the end it had to facilitate creating a KV-1S.

 

[Vjacheslav Malyshev]

So that's the plan. In Russia plans are the strongest adjustments. Calculations, as you can see, is only approximate dates. In reality, the T-34M was ready only by the middle of 1943 and was not put into production, having already conceded the German "Panther". Tank KV-3 was too heavy, giving the Reliability chassis even the KV-1, which is also not reliable, and in the end it had to facilitate creating a KV-1S.

Will post response in the thread I posted earlier to prevent derailing.

 

[Aley]

Will post response in the thread I posted earlier to prevent derailing.

This is an allusion to my English? Alas.

 

[Vjacheslav Malyshev]

This is an allusion to my English? Alas.

What? I want to keep the thread on topic here is the thread if you wish to respond www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=286893

 

[omnimercurial]

Would your Alt Navy be a sufficient influence on events to perhaps gain Finland as an SSR post War or maybe seal up the entrance to the Med between Turkey & Greece limiting Nazi damage to the USSR & reducing Logistics?

If the Soviets are seen more often near greece fighting the Nazi's & shipping supplies to Greek Partisans more than OTL maybe there might be a Red greece via increased support or direct Soviet Liberation in concert with local freedom fighters?

 

[Aley]

Would your Alt Navy be a sufficient influence on events to perhaps gain Finland as an SSR post War or maybe seal up the entrance to the Med between Turkey & Greece limiting Nazi damage to the USSR & reducing Logistics?

If the Soviets are seen more often near greece fighting the Nazi's & shipping supplies to Greek Partisans more than OTL maybe there might be a Red greece via increased support or direct Soviet Liberation in concert with local freedom fighters?

In the war with Finland, in 1940, the Soviet fleet could play a major role, so there is no alternative. Go out into the Mediterranean, without the Straits, the Black Sea fleet as well could not. Now, if Turkey declared war on the Soviet Union ... There would have Straits.
When I started this alternative, I was interested in the result of the presence in the ocean several major warships, which could go to the Northern Fleet. Since the presence of such ships at the Northern Fleet before the war, given the pre-war Soviet doctrine was a complete fiction, there was only the Pacific Ocean. But at the same time, the presence of large forces in the Far East was possible only when there is sufficient number of ships in the Baltic Fleet and the Black Sea Fleet, which were seen as key. So I had to increase the number of warships in these fleets, aware that due to the loss of most naval bases they will still be able to do very little.

 

[Aley]

The heavy cruisers of project 22.

By designing new heavy cruisers, designated initially as project 122, Soviet designers started before the war. The emergence of a new project helped to purchase in Germany the unfinished heavy cruiser "Lützow", renamed "Lenin" and, as a result, the ability to combine in a new project but not only the Soviet and German experience in the design of these ships.
Immediately after the war, the draft of the heavy cruiser returned, giving it a new number 22.
The main task of the designed ship was found to support connections aircraft carriers, in order to avoid breaking them heavy enemy surface ships. However, the cruisers of project 22 should solve the problem and independent, and have no aircraft carriers, the Baltic and Black Sea fleets make up the backbone of the strike force.
According to the original project cruiser had to have weapons of eight 203-mm guns with mechanical loading, arranged in four twin towers. Designing such towers was largely completed by the "Bolshevik" in 1946, and succeeded rate of seven shots per minute, which would have been a success if not for the appearance in the U.S. Navy heavy cruisers of the "Des Moines" with nine 203 - mm guns with a rate of ten rounds per minute. Such opponents of the Soviet cruiser, of course, lost.
Proposal N. Kuznetsov to increase the caliber of guns designed cruisers to 229 mm was rejected by industry, but industry representatives, in turn, offered to increase the number of 203-mm guns to twelve. The problem was that the developed delivery system shells and charge them focused on the two-gun scheme of arrangement of the two instruments in one cradle. Development of a lift to the three-gun turrets could have dragged on too long.
The output was the development of new quad towers, with the location of guns in pairs, each pair of guns had a common charging system.
Since it was believed that the cruisers of "Des Moines" have the thickness of the armor belt 203 mm, respectively, was increased and the thickness of the armor of a Soviet ship.
Initially, the armed cruiser of the project consisted of eight stabilized units paired 45-mm guns, but at a meeting of Stalin pointed out that the number of anti-aircraft guns on the heavy cruiser is already under construction yields a light cruiser of the project 91, and offered to increase the number of anti-aircraft machines. The designers have found the easiest way out, replacing the paired stable installation on quad unregulated, suddenly doubling the number of 45-mm guns.
The head cruiser, called "Stalingrad" was laid in Molotovske in April 1950 and in December of the following year removed from the as-built dock. Soon it was followed Launched in Nikolaev and Leningrad "Kerch" and "Leningrad". On the stocks freed after the descent of the last two cruisers were laid "Moscow" and "Tallinn", but their fate was unenviable. In line with the government's decision to reduce the number of surface ships under construction, the casings were cut directly on the stocks.
In 1955, the heavy cruiser "Stalingrad" was given a new name - "Moscow". Together with the heavy cruiser "Leningrad" it is up to the late 80's. was a member of the Red Banner Northern Fleet, and the same type of "Kerch" in the Pacific.

1. Stalingrad 50-51-53 Molotovsk (since 1955 - Moscow)
2. Kerch 50-52-54 Russud
3. Leningrad 50-52-54 Balt. p.
4. Moscow 52-XX Russud
5. Tallinn 52-XX Balt. p.

Displacement of 21,600 tons (standard) 25200 tonnes (full).
Dimensions (KWL) 225x24,5x8,5 m.
Speed ​​33 knots, with a power ISU 165,000 hp.
Armament: 3x4 203-mm/57, 6x2 130-mm/58, 8x4 45-mm machine guns.
Reservations: belt 203 mm, deck 180 mm.

 

[eltf177]

That is a pretty ship!

 

[Aley]

That is a pretty ship!

Thank you! Next stop - aircraft carriers.

 

[Cockroach]

Sorry to intrude, but just to remind the OP that the people over at Shipbucket prefer pictures based upon their work to be properly credited.

 

[Aley]

Carriers of the project 34. Part 1.

The morning of December 20, 1952 the water level in the output pool Molotov plant reached a peak. Docking camera number two workshop 50th was also filled with water. High Noon was open caisson, and, pushing pieces of ice had time to appear, the large body of new aircraft carrier slowly began to slide out of the workshop.
In the evening of the same day, Stalin received a telegram, reports the launch of the world's largest carrier. This is to some extent an exaggeration. Although the standard displacement of an aircraft carrier being built in Molotovsk did a little superior to that of the U.S. aircraft carriers, such as "Midway", but the full displacement American ships still ahead of the new Soviet.
Launched at the end of the development of the Great Patriotic War, the project 34 was long evolution. Previously a somewhat enlarged version of Project 54, after appearing in the part of the U.S. Navy aircraft carriers of "Midway", has been growing by leaps and bounds. With 20000 tonnes, it quickly reached 35,000, and then 45000. In addition to the experts predicted a rapid increase in the size of jet growth, and the displacement was caused by the desire to maximize the number of anti-aircraft guns. In the end, it consisted of 16 130-mm guns and 64 universal 45-mm machine guns. As a result, the body aircraft carrier was developed sponsons, especially sticking above the surface in the region of 130-mm twin installations.
Width of the flight deck in the "island" was 38 m, but in the end, limited sponsons, it was 33 meters. Huge hangar size 212x31 had a height of 5.4 m, top (flight) deck overlaid by 50.8 mm armor. In the hangar were two offset to the left side lifts, theoretically allowing them to combine work with takeoff and landing operations. In the bow are two hydraulic catapult.
The aircraft carrier had a strong defense anti torpedo which had a depth of 6.5 m
The parent carrier, called "Molotov", was founded in Molotovsk at the end of 1949. It was followed by the same type of "Lazar Kaganovich", "Mikoyan" and after launching the first - "Kalinin". Unfortunately, the fate of the latter two was tragic, after coming to power, Khrushchev their construction was stopped.
"Molotov" was submitted for testing in the spring of 1954, not yet having on board a regular air group. Instead, have not yet started the production of the Tu-18 and MiG-19K, in its hangar stood torpedo Che-4 and deck options piston La-11. Only since the end of 1955 prescribed the new cars launched on deck "Molotov" and passing the test, "Lazar Kaganovich." Ultimately, each carrier air group consisted of 30 torpedo bombers Tu-18 and fighter s 54 MiG-19K.
In 1956, "Lazar Kaganovich," renamed "Petropavlovsk" went on a long trek around Africa to the Pacific Ocean. "Molotov", renamed "Glory" remained in the Northern Fleet.
During the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962, "Slava" was under repair. All attempts to speed up the work of command ran into opposition The Ministry of shipbuilding, however, is quite reasonable. Furious, Khrushchev ordered to send even "useless" aircraft carrier scrapped, but in time to change his mind. Maybe someone reminded him of the fate of two more aircraft carriers scrapped by his order, and that would be in 1962 on the go.
Revenge took the "Petropavlovsk", during the U.S. aggression in Vietnam made several trips to the war zone, forcing the Americans to allocate to counter the Soviet ship of its aircraft carriers air group, thereby reducing the effectiveness of air strikes against the DRV. But by the time the "Petropavlovsk" looked quite different.

Displacement: 47,100 tons (standard) 56500 tonnes (full).
276.0 (296.5 on the deck) x36,0 (38.0 deck) x9,6 m
Armament: 8x2 130-mm/58, 16x4 45 mm.
Reservations: belt 140 mm, 51 mm deck (above the citadel) 51 mm (top).
220000 hp. 32 knots.

1. Molotov 49-52-54 Molotovsk
2. Lazar Kaganovich 50-53-55 Balt. pl.
3. Mikoyan 51-53 - X Nawal
4. Kalinin 51 - X-X Molotovsk

 

[Aley]

Sorry to intrude, but just to remind the OP that the people over at Shipbucket prefer pictures based upon their work to be properly credited.

I'm sorry, I gave earlier references to Shipbucket. Then he decided that with great processing of the original image, you can not do. I will correct myself.