They did two seat Lightnings and Hunters, I don't see a reason they couldn't do that with the P.1121 if it was needed.
Sorry! I didn't see your post until after I had written mine."Just"
R&D for adapting Phantom to take the Spey engine was at least £75 million. That doesn't include for any of the other changes or the impact on manufacturing costs. For comparison a standard Phantom was estimated at £1.5 million to buy.
It will be cheaper to just design and build a UK design than attempt to adapt an existing one. It always is.
Yeah, I have that one on the bookshelf. Aside from the book itself what they've posted over at the Secret Projects forums to accompany it are fascinating. It's been a while since I read it but IIRC it was one of the books that said more Thud than Phantom.I strongly recommend Hawker P.1103 & P.1121: Camm's Last Fighter Projects by Paul Martell-Mead and Barrie Hygate. Blue Envoy Press ISBN 978-0-9561951-5-9. Most recent work on the type.
Had a chance to check and it looks like it might have actually been the Type 576 I was thinking of, although the jury is still out on the provenance of the images I was remembering as I can't find them.You might be thinking of the Supermarine Type 556.
Why did the Canadians buy it then? They could have opted for the F106NO!!!
No agility, had a habit of getting into flat spins which were unrecoverable the pilot notes said to just eject if it happened, it had all sorts of maneuver restrictions which made actual dogfighting a bit of a nightmare, also not that fast and the only A/G armament was a nuke and 20mm cannon in the F101 A and C. The B had the appalling AIM4 Falcon which was barely worth the cost of the fuel to haul it to the intercept point where it would only likely hit the ground reliably.
Cheap! The CF-104s were second hand, and given cheap.Why did the Canadians buy it then? They could have opted for the F106
I pulled the £75 million from a 1968 Parliamentary question;Sorry! I didn't see your post until after I had written mine.
Very little of the Spey Phantom could be supported by the Phantom support network. That was the problem with reengining it and the structural problems that entailed.
The Spey was too late for the Crusader. Avon would be a good fit for the basic Crusader, an Olympus for an advanced one based on the Crusader III. But the Spey came along when the Crusader was already on life support.
so could it have been given better STOL performance than the Spey-Phantom so that it could operate from ships that could operate the Buccaneer?
The Buccaneer and Phantom had boundary layer control, high speed air blasted out of slots at the front of the wing to energise the air over the top and create much more lift than the size of the wing would suggest, as well as blown flaps. RN F4Ks had increased power to their blown flaps compared to USN Phantoms, it was this bleed air that also drove the requirement for the Spey engine and allowed RN Phantoms to use the short 151' BS5 catapult in the right wind conditions and bring back in-used bombs.
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Point taken.The Buccaneer wasn't a STOL plane, far from it, but the boundary layer control system gave it the low speed handling of a plane with much bigger wings.
Point taken.
I also thought that a clean sheet of paper aircraft could be designed to fold into a smaller package than the Phantom.
Why did the Canadians buy it then? They could have opted for the F106
On the subject of the AW.681 BAC Filton's proposed a licence built Hercules with Tyne engines to Operational Requirement 351 and Specification C.241. Would that have been cheaper to develop and build than the AW.681?I think so too, and done instead of the P1154, its supporting AW681 and Phantom.
Were they equipped for performing long range escort missions as well ?The F101B was basically wired and designed for NORAD and they wanted a twin engine fighter to replace the twin engined CF100 with a similar range to the in a NORAD environment.
Were they equipped for performing long range escort missions as well ?
On the subject of the AW.681 BAC Filton's proposed a licence built Hercules with Tyne engines to Operational Requirement 351 and Specification C.241. Would that have been cheaper to develop and build than the AW.681?
When you write 'than the AW.681' do you mean to completion and introduction into service or until cancellation as in our timeline? I'm assuming the former rather than the latter but it pays to double-check.On the subject of the AW.681 BAC Filton's proposed a licence built Hercules with Tyne engines to Operational Requirement 351 and Specification C.241. Would that have been cheaper to develop and build than the AW.681?
The Hawker P.193B could work for an AEW aircraft for both the RN and the RAFThe requirement for the AW681 was based on the demands of the P1154/Mirage IIIV dispersed VOTL operations. If you RAF doesn't go down that stupid route then there is no need for a VTOL transport to support it, the British can buy a mix of Belfast and C160 or G222.
The F-101A was designed to be a long range escort fighter with 4 20mm cannon but that mission disappeared almost as soon as the plane was designed. In the RCAF I believe it was only used as an area defense fighter. The B model was equipped with the AIM-4 as a secondary weapon and the AIR2 Genie nuclear rocket as the primary weapon. I never saw them at Red Flag but did see them regularly at Langley as they stopped on the way to Tyndall AFB FL to do weapons training. We would usually see 4 at a time on a weekend with another 4 stopping a couple hours later, I believe headed in the other direction. there were still a few ANG/AFRes units equipped with them in the mid 70s and we would have them show up at Langley occasionally (Including one time a reserve colonel flew in for a conference at TAC HQ and had his golf clubs and luggage in the Weapons bay. Somehow the door jammed and would not open. It took all night for our technicians to figure out how to open it!)Were they equipped for performing long range escort missions as well ?
The Hawker P.193B could work for an AEW aircraft for both the RN and the RAF