Alternative single fighter for UK in 1960s

Unfortunately, that was in the 1950s when the UK was spending about 10% of GNP on Defence, compared to 7% in the 1960s.
The development of a universal fighter for the 1960's would have to begin in the mid 50's reaching prototype stage by 1960 and becoming operational around 1962-3.
 
The US backed development of the Valiant. The Neptunes didn't stay in RAF service for long. only until the RAF got all the Shackletons they wanted the aircraft were then returned to the US. 3 ended up in Argentina and spent many pointless hours looking for the Task Force in 1982.
 

Zen9

Banned
The development of a universal fighter for the 1960's would have to begin in the mid 50's reaching prototype stage by 1960 and becoming operational around 1962-3.
Per history that is the Type 556 despite some disparaging Vickers Supermarine.
The alternative of the times is a fighter version of the Buccaneer.

Alternatives might be higher performance but are mostly Hypothetical.
Saro did ask if the RAF could relax F155 then they could make submissions based around a single Gyron or twin Gyron Juniors. Neither of which needed a rocket. Refused so they could then refuse DH the same request.

You could get DH to see the light on Deltas...or have DH Christchurch do something with a variable incidence wing.

EE obviously had both Lightning and a canard design that could be developed to meet most needs.

Most of the others are not thinking right.
Except Avro.......
 
I've been meaning to do this one for a while. The sources is Tightrope Walking by Lord Carver.

UK Defence Spending 1932-54 from Carver Mk 2.png
 
And this one from the same source. Note that there are some differences between the two tables.

The constant price figures are based on the retail price index. Since there is a lack of a satisfactory price index for defence spending, the real expenditure figures should be treated as boundaries of magnitude.

UK Defence Spending 1948-79 from Carver Mk 2.png
 
The development of a universal fighter for the 1960's would have to begin in the mid 50's reaching prototype stage by 1960 and becoming operational around 1962-3.
As you've mentioned the mid-1950s. This was the OTL plan for Fighter Command from March 1955 to March 1960 at January 1955.

S.R.D.F. = Short Range Day Fighter

Note that F.153 is the Thin-Wing Javelin and F.23/49 is the Lightning, which at this time were seen as complementary aircraft.

Fighter Command January 1955 Mk 3.png
 
The development of a universal fighter for the 1960's would have to begin in the mid 50's reaching prototype stage by 1960 and becoming operational around 1962-3.
Having thought about it, that timetable is too optimistic.

I think it would take the British aircraft industry at least 10 years to develop from the Operational Requirements Branch writing the operational requirement to the formation of the first squadron. Therefore, it is necessary to start in the early 1950s and preferably around 1950.

As an example F.23/49 for an Interceptor Fighter with Supersonic Performance to OR.268 was dated 4th April 1950 and issued to English Electric on 10th April 1950. No. 74 Squadron received its Lightning F Mk 1s on 29th June 1960.

I think a single aircraft to combine the FAW, SRDF, DF/GA and FR roles for the RAF is a non-starter.

The best that can be done for the RAF is a Mach 2 twin-engine heavy fighter for the FAW role to replace the Javelin and a Mach 2 single-engine light fighter to replace the Hunter in the DF/GA and FR roles.

We need a different Spec. F.23/49 to produce the heavy fighter.

I think we already have the basis of the Mach 2 single-engine light fighter to replace the Hunter in the Fairey Delta 2, which was built to Specification ER.103 issued on 26th September 1950.
 
Unfortunately, that was in the 1950s when the UK was spending about 10% of GNP on Defence, compared to 7% in the 1960s.

They were also cheaper to develop and cheaper to build than the generation of aircraft that replaced them.

I've also got it in my head that the USA paid for some of them through MDAP. Can anyone confirm that?

You didn't mention the V-bombers, but I think the USA paid for some of them either directly or indirectly.

Also the UK was desperately short of Dollars after World War II. Hence Austerity and the Export Drive. The Treasury didn't have the Dollars to pay for American aircraft even if they were better and cheaper than what the British aircraft industry could make.

And before anyone says, "Then why did they buy 52 Lockheed Neptunes?" The answer is that they were provided via MDAP and IIRC ordered in the first place because Avro couldn't build Shackletons fast enough.

Although they were built in Canada, rather than the USA, I think that the 400+ Canadair Sabres were paid for through MDAP. Can anyone confirm that?

A few crucial points in there.

Yes, the story of British defence in the first half of the Cold War was one of declining defence share of GDP and manpower, not cash per se.

Yes, the design of a 50s sub/transonic day fighter is vastly different from a 50s All-weather fighter, which is why the Swift/Hunter/Scimitar are so different to the Javelin/Sea Vixen. When you jam both of these requirements into one plane then make it supersonic you have 3 development drives which dramatically increase the cost and the consequences for getting it right/wrong.

IIUC the US paid for Valiant development and production via MDAP.

Yes, the British had the Sterling Area where they could trade in Sterling without impacting on the scarce Dollar reserves. That's why they instituted the Joint Project with Australia and other Commonwealth countries for nuclear and rocket development.

It wasn't just Neptunes-Shackeltons, the same thing happened with FAA Skyraider AEWs and Gannet AEWs, as soon as they could the British replaced American aircraft with British aircraft for what I call 'whole of government' reasons. People are far too fixated on speed and unit cost of aircraft, its no point having a lot of fast planes that you can't get parts for because there are no US dollars to buy them with.

I don't the details of the Canadair Sabre deal, but I'm guessing the trade relationship with Canada was significantly different to the US which made the deal attractive.
 

MatthewB

Banned
That's the problem. When you put all that together, you've basically just exactly described the F-4. And the Treasury will then ask why they should fund a new design when there's already an off the shelf design not only ready, but in service?
Yea, but wasn’t the Speyed Phantom a huge expense compared to what was budgeted or expected?
 
Yea, but wasn’t the Speyed Phantom a huge expense compared to what was budgeted or expected?

Yes, but still vastly cheaper than developing a new fighter of similar performance from scratch. One issue was the fixed price contract which were trendy at the time, when development costs ballooned the money come from the production-cost lines of the contract. Another issue was the devaluation of the pound by 14% in November 1967 which made that same fixed price contract even less valuable.

However, another way of looking at it is that the Spey Phantom was a joint project with the US, more akin to the Jaguar than buying off the shelf.
 
The Meteors sent to the continent in 1945 are slaughtered by ME 262s?
IIRC the Admiralty expected the Soviets to mass produce FBD and HTP submarines based on captured German technology.

IIRC the RAF expected the Soviets to mass produce copies of the B-29s that they acquired.

Do we know if the RAF also thought that the Soviets would mass produce Me 262s?

I presume that the RAF evaluated captured Me 262s against the Meteor anyway. I think having a formation of Meteors slaughtered by Me 262s in 1945 might have more of an effect on the politicians rather than the RAF's Operational Requirements Branch. They might be less willing to sell those engines to the USSR, which might make more difference than the British developing an interim generation of jet fighters with swept wings before the definitive types designed to F.3/48 and F.4/48 appear.
 
It wasn't just Neptunes-Shackeltons, the same thing happened with FAA Skyraider AEWs and Gannet AEWs, as soon as they could the British replaced American aircraft with British aircraft for what I call 'whole of government' reasons.
There were more than them.

150 Neptunes were originally planned and 150 serial numbers were allocated.

I didn't mention the Avengers acquired in the 1950s to fill the gap before the A/S Gannet entered service. Or the 25 Sikorsky Whirlwinds (of 50 requested) and 18 Bell HSL ASW helicopters that weren't delivered because it was a failure. Thetford says that the Hiller HTE-2 helicopters that it used for training were acquired under MDAP arrangements. The Hiller 12E helicopters that entered service in the early 1960s were probably cash purchases.

The 87 Boeing B-29s of 105 planned were supplied under MDAP.

I've seen some documents at the National Archives suggesting that the RAF wanted to acquire some Fairchild C-119s via MDAP.

Some of the NF Venoms, Sea Venoms, NF Meteors and Javelins were fitted with American built AI radars. Does anyone know if they were paid for or supplied via MDAP?

The AEW Skyraiders had to be acquired from the USA because no British equivalent was available. According to Freidman in the Post War Naval Revolution a requirement for an AEW aircraft was written (IIRC) in the late 1940s with IOC planned for (IIRC) the middle of the 1950s, but the radar could not be developed due to a shortage of scientists.
People are far too fixated on speed and unit cost of aircraft, its no point having a lot of fast planes that you can't get parts for because there are no US dollars to buy them with.
AIUI no Dollars to buy the spare parts was why most of the Lend Lease aircraft were returned or destroyed at the end of World War II.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Yea, but wasn’t the Speyed Phantom a huge expense compared to what was budgeted or expected?
Oh it was! But the Spey Phantom was estimated to be cheaper than developing an entirely new aircraft that would no more than match the Phantom in performance
 

Zen9

Banned
Yea, but wasn’t the Speyed Phantom a huge expense compared to what was budgeted or expected?
Yes projected cost was 1.2 million, actual cost over 3 million maybe 3.5 I forget.
Hence why I say F8 is roughly half the cost of F4K in estimates.

At the time P1154 was expected to cost 1.5 million. So the expected saving was 0.3 million per plane.
 
The Neptunes didn't stay in RAF service for long. Only until the RAF got all the Shackletons they wanted the aircraft were then returned to the US. 3 ended up in Argentina and spent many pointless hours looking for the Task Force in 1982.
The RAF only got all the Shackletons they wanted because the total number of LRMP aircraft was reduced under the 1957 Defence Review, which meant that the Neptunes and Sunderlands suddenly became surplus to requirements.

This is the plan for Coastal Command and Transport Command at January 1955 which ends at March 1960. As can be seen the Neptune planned to equip 4 squadrons of 8 aircraft in March 1960 and there were still to be 2 Squadrons of Sunderlands too. The post for Fighter Command shows the Vanguard Flight still being in existence at the end of March 1960.

IIRC the total LRMR force of the RAF (i.e. including the overseas commands) had been reduced to 66 Shackletons in 11 squadrons in March 1960 as a result of the 1957 Defence Review. That's less than what was planned for Coastal Command alone for March 1960 at January 1955 when there was to be a grand total of 104 LRMP aircraft in 13 squadrons, including 72 Shackletons in 9 squadrons.

Plan L Coastal and Transport Commands at January 1955.png
 

MatthewB

Banned
Yes, but still vastly cheaper than developing a new fighter of similar performance from scratch.
I just don’t understand the logic of those arguing against a home-build aircraft. This thread clearly outlines that whatever fighter we’re producing will be in place of the Javelin, Lightning, Vixen, etc. So, we have no, can I make that clearer, no shortage of funds.

Take what was spent to make the half dozen RAF and FAA fighters of the late 1950s and early 1960s and surely we have sufficient coin to meet the needs outsider in the OP.
 
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