Alternative Silk Route during Roman times?

Did the Romans ever try and develop a different Silk Road than the one that runs through Persia? If they tried, why did it fail and if they didn't why didn't they? Surely they would want to cut Persia out of the route, as it was pointed out they were practically subsidising their enemies.
 
The attempted conquest of Arabia, possibly. If Arabia had been annexed or attached to Nabataea as one large client-kingdom, Egypto-Romano-Nabataean shipping could have easily traded with Bactria and India by ship, bypassing Parthia completely.

The conquest of Armenia and the Transcaucasus, with a port on the Caspian might be another alternative, no idea how viable though.

(Both of them are concepts with which I flirted in "After Actium").
 

katchen

Banned
I am currently reading "The Silk Road": A New History by Valerie Hansen Oxford University Press 2012. Has anyone else read it?
Apparently, the term "silk road" is a bit of a misnomer. The "silk road" was basically a set of ill maintained trails trough mostly trackless desert, particularly in Sinkiang that carried a low volume of high value products between China, India and the West. And most of the goods it carried seem to have been destined for India or Persia.And very few traders travelled more than a few hundred miles of the journey. Goods were basically passed from party tp party all along it's length, getting marked up each time it was resold.
The vast bulk of trade between Rome and the East apparently went by sea from Egypt via Berenike, Jidda-Mecca, by caravan to Adana (Aden) and then by dhow using the monsoons to India, the Straits of Malacca, Funan and on to South China. The only real value the Silk Road had was it was the direct way to the Han capitals of Chang'an or later Loyang.
Having said that, there is an obvious out of the box alternative that would make the Silk Road able to carry far more volume--and far more profitable in both directions, if someone would but explore in that direction. The problem is that it is not obvious.
Unlike a voyage to North America, it is well within the capabilities of Roman triremes to sail along the Norwegian coast to Lapland and past Lapland and the Kara Gates to the mouth of the Ob and Yensei within one season. The distance from Londinium to the mouth of the Yensei is about the length of the Mediteranean Sea. And because it is along the coast, it is easy to put in every few days for water and even food for oarsmen, provided the ship is well enough armed to deal with tribesmen one is likely to find along the way. And the distance from the Ob Mouth to the head of navigation on the Irtysh is only about 3500 miles with a further 500 miles by caravan to Anshi where the Great Wall of China begins at the Jade Gate.This cuts out all of the mountains and almost all of the desert part of the journey to China and makes it a journey that can be done in one season, if the Ket and Goturk people (Yes, the Yensei has a similar length) can be traded with. And both have furs that can be traded for---both ways. So we're talking 5000 miles that can be done with a travel season of 5 months.
And with the midnight sun in the high arctic, oarsmen ought to be able to do 40 miles a day if some of the oarsmen can be permitted to sleep in shifts so that they don't completely wear themselves out.
All it would take would be for somebody to accidentally take a boat down the Irtysh on the way back from Chang'an and somehow get to Londinium, living to tell the tale. The route would not close up until about the 3rd or 4th century with the Roman Little Ice Age and by that time, Roman (and/or Chinese) civilization) would have spread throughouit Siberia, and probably exchanged reindeer herding to the Tibetans in return for yak herding to the Sami, Ket, Lapps, Finns, Norwegians and Britons. And Buddhism all along this trade route.
 
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I am currently reading "The Silk Road": A New History by Valerie Hansen Oxford University Press 2012. Has anyone else read it?
Apparently, the term "silk road" is a bit of a misnomer. The "silk road" was basically a set of ill maintained trails trough mostly trackless desert, particularly in Sinkiang that carried a low volume of high value products between China, India and the West. And most of the goods it carried seem to have been destined for India or Persia.And very few traders travelled more than a few hundred miles of the journey. Goods were basically passed from party tp party all along it's length, getting marked up each time it was resold.
The vast bulk of trade between Rome and the East apparently went by sea from Egypt via Berenike, Jidda-Mecca, by caravan to Adana (Aden) and then by dhow using the monsoons to India, the Straits of Malacca, Funan and on to South China. The only real value the Silk Road had was it was the direct way to the Han capitals of Chang'an or later Loyang.
Having said that, there is an obvious out of the box alternative that would make the Silk Road able to carry far more volume--and far more profitable in both directions, if someone would but explore in that direction. The problem is that it is not obvious.
Unlike a voyage to North America, it is well within the capabilities of Roman triremes to sail along the Norwegian coast to Lapland and past Lapland and the Kara Gates to the mouth of the Ob and Yensei within one season. The distance from Londinium to the mouth of the Yensei is about the length of the Mediteranean Sea. And because it is along the coast, it is easy to put in every few days for water and even food for oarsmen, provided the ship is well enough armed to deal with tribesmen one is likely to find along the way. And the distance from the Ob Mouth to the head of navigation on the Irtysh is only about 3500 miles with a further 500 miles by caravan to Anshi where the Great Wall of China begins at the Jade Gate.This cuts out all of the mountains and almost all of the desert part of the journey to China and makes it a journey that can be done in one season, if the Ket and Goturk people (Yes, the Yensei has a similar length) can be traded with. And both have furs that can be traded for---both ways. So we're talking 5000 miles that can be done with a travel season of 5 months.
And with the midnight sun in the high arctic, oarsmen ought to be able to do 40 miles a day if some of the oarsmen can be permitted to sleep in shifts so that they don't completely wear themselves out.
All it would take would be for somebody to accidentally take a boat down the Irtysh on the way back from Chang'an and somehow get to Londinium, living to tell the tale. The route would not close up until about the 3rd or 4th century with the Roman Little Ice Age and by that time, Roman (and/or Chinese) civilization) would have spread throughouit Siberia, and probably exchanged reindeer herding to the Tibetans in return for yak herding to the Sami, Ket, Lapps, Finns, Norwegians and Britons. And Buddhism all along this trade route.

That is an absolutely fascinating idea. Someone really should do a timeline where that happens. How likely is Roman/Chinese type civilization to be able to support itself though?

I guess some trading towns would grow up along the route however. I would absolutely love it if it kick-started Siberian civilization. There would be a lot of butterflies too, depending on how much money is made it would probably pull some attention from Rome and China north as well.

It doesn't even have to happen in Roman times. Imagine the effects on the age of exploration if people know they can get to China from the North as well. This is absolutely brilliant :D.
 
Any chance of a simple map showing how that route could work?

250px-Northern_Sea_Route_vs_Southern_Sea_Route.svg.png

The blue route is the modern day North East Passage showing how much shorter that trade route is in relation to the most common sea lane which goes through the Suez Canal. It is also worth noting that the Chinese had massive ships that could have made the journey pretty easy once the route was fully mapped.
 
250px-Northern_Sea_Route_vs_Southern_Sea_Route.svg.png

The blue route is the modern day North East Passage showing how much shorter that trade route is in relation to the most common sea lane which goes through the Suez Canal. It is also worth noting that the Chinese had massive ships that could have made the journey pretty easy once the route was fully mapped.

Would they have the ships or the will to actually travel that route? I mean Ice could be a serious issue.
 
Would they have the ships or the will to actually travel that route? I mean Ice could be a serious issue.

If memory serves the planet was warmer back in this timeframe, and I am quite sure that the Russian's navigated it for hundreds of years with wooden hulled merchant ships.

Of course I wouldn't want to sail it anytime between October and March myself, but realistically a 5 or 6 month sailing window should be more then enough time. Especially if the Romans / Chinese do what the Russian's did irl, and establish safe ports of call in the region.
 

katchen

Banned
You misunderstand! Not even during the Roman Warm Period can Roman ships get around Cape Chelyuskin, let alone through the Bering Strait! But they CAN get to the Ob and Yensei Rivers and then up those rivers. At least I think they can. How many miles upstream CAN these oared ships travel in a day anyway?:confused: One thing is certain, though. They can carry a lot more cargo on boats than they can on backs of horses or camels. Even if they are vulnerable to steppe tribes on the upper stages of their journey when the Irtysh crosses the steppes.
And the Yensei goes through forests right up until it passes through the Sayan canyons into Tuva. Then everything gets unloaded onto Hsiung Nu camels for the trip across the Gobi desert to Han. They can't use the Angara to Lake Baikal because the Angara is full of rapids.
The Lower Tunguska is interesting because it portages to the upper Lena. Which flows downstream to the east. And has some tributaries like the Olekma and Vitim that go south and can connect to the Amur. And the Aldan and the Maja that are only a low mountain range from the Pacific. Which is how the Russians reached the Pacific seventy years after Yermak crossed the Urals OTL. But this is not something Roman traders can do in one season. It takes at least two and probably three to reach China or Japan that way. Not exactly practical. But a good way to trade for more furs for China and Rome and points in between.....
 
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