Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3

[Not James Stockdale]

Two issues with the Manticore TL right now:

1. The Medium 40-ton tanks that were introduced as roughly Panther equivalents in 1943 are still in use with some expeditionary forces (not committed to land war against the Soviets in Europe) and need to be upgraded. They were armed with 90 mm M3 tank guns. What would be a reasonable gun to upgrade to around 1960? Manticore has a 90 mm L/50 mid-pressure smoothbore (T132) that was used to upgrade tanks originally armed with 76 mm M1 guns, so that would be the lower end of what is possible. The upper end (the possibly unattainable goal) would be a 105 mm L7. The Medium 40-ton tank has been conceptualized as very similar to the Japanese Type 61, and that can get a 105 mm L7 as its upgrade gun in World of Tanks. Turret ring diameter is the same as the Sherman or Pershing, 1753 mm, so the largest gun possible might be a mid-pressure 105 mm gun like the CN 105 D1 on the M51 Super Shermans.

2. Manticoran light tanks have been based on the light chassis, so they work within pretty tough weight constraints (15-20 tons max) compared to early Cold War light tanks like the Bulldog. The wheeled chassis is somewhat larger than the Studebaker T27 or the Sd Kfz 234 and similar in size to the Terrapin amphibious vehicle. It has an upper weight limit of roughly 12 to 13 tons and is not amphibious. These light tanks use a 76 mm hi-lo pressure gun, firing the same shells as a contemporary recoilless gun. I don't think this size vehicle would be able to go up to a 90 mm hi-lo gun, and even if it could it is already getting pretty old. The replacement wheeled chassis is larger and amphibious, similar to the OT-64 SKOT. At the time, the AML-90 was entering service with a 90 mm light gun, but that is a 7 ton vehicle compared to this new 14-15 ton 8x8. I don't think the bigger 90 mm L/50 would be an option for a wheeled vehicle. Are there any options in this time period that would be somewhere in the middle?

 

[Hammerbolt]

Two issues with the Manticore TL right now:

1. The Medium 40-ton tanks that were introduced as roughly Panther equivalents in 1943 are still in use with some expeditionary forces (not committed to land war against the Soviets in Europe) and need to be upgraded. They were armed with 90 mm M3 tank guns. What would be a reasonable gun to upgrade to around 1960? Manticore has a 90 mm L/50 mid-pressure smoothbore (T132) that was used to upgrade tanks originally armed with 76 mm M1 guns, so that would be the lower end of what is possible. The upper end (the possibly unattainable goal) would be a 105 mm L7. The Medium 40-ton tank has been conceptualized as very similar to the Japanese Type 61, and that can get a 105 mm L7 as its upgrade gun in World of Tanks. Turret ring diameter is the same as the Sherman or Pershing, 1753 mm, so the largest gun possible might be a mid-pressure 105 mm gun like the CN 105 D1 on the M51 Super Shermans.

2. Manticoran light tanks have been based on the light chassis, so they work within pretty tough weight constraints (15-20 tons max) compared to early Cold War light tanks like the Bulldog. The wheeled chassis is somewhat larger than the Studebaker T27 or the Sd Kfz 234 and similar in size to the Terrapin amphibious vehicle. It has an upper weight limit of roughly 12 to 13 tons and is not amphibious. These light tanks use a 76 mm hi-lo pressure gun, firing the same shells as a contemporary recoilless gun. I don't think this size vehicle would be able to go up to a 90 mm hi-lo gun, and even if it could it is already getting pretty old. The replacement wheeled chassis is larger and amphibious, similar to the OT-64 SKOT. At the time, the AML-90 was entering service with a 90 mm light gun, but that is a 7 ton vehicle compared to this new 14-15 ton 8x8. I don't think the bigger 90 mm L/50 would be an option for a wheeled vehicle. Are there any options in this time period that would be somewhere in the middle?

For the quasi-Panther: if they are on secondary areas, not meeting first grade enemies, maybe just upgrade the ammo? A modified breach might handle, say, a new sabbot round with improved propelant that raized it's speed. Add an improved fire control, and you have an upgrade that can be done (relatively) quickly and on the cheap.

The "wheeled light tank" is a hard case. The french were really the mastes of the "car with heavy gun". You mentioned the 60s and a 90mm gun; that will give you the AML or the EBR 90; World of Tanks has an EBR 105, but it's a fake. If you can strech the period a bit (call it acelerated developement), you can use the AMX10RC as basis, thus getting a 16ton car with a 105mm

 

[wietze]

The "wheeled light tank" is a hard case. The french were really the mastes of the "car with heavy gun". You mentioned the 60s and a 90mm gun; that will give you the AML or the EBR 90; World of Tanks has an EBR 105, but it's a fake. If you can strech the period a bit (call it acelerated developement), you can use the AMX10RC as basis, thus getting a 16ton car with a 105mm

considering the AMX tank had a 105mm gun, and the EBR90 uses the same turret(FL10), so the FL12 105mm amx turret should fit on the EBR too

 

[Not James Stockdale]

The "wheeled light tank" is a hard case. The french were really the mastes of the "car with heavy gun". You mentioned the 60s and a 90mm gun; that will give you the AML or the EBR 90; World of Tanks has an EBR 105, but it's a fake. If you can strech the period a bit (call it acelerated developement), you can use the AMX10RC as basis, thus getting a 16ton car with a 105mm

The French had quite a lot of 90 mm light guns at the time.

1. CN 90 F1: The DEFA D921 as seen on the AML and the Ratel 90. Case dimensions 90 x 353 mm, the same ammunition as the Cockerill Mark 3 as seen on the Scorpion 90.
2. CN 90 F2: I think it was a bored-out 75 mm SA49, which was a relatively short 75 mm gun used on the early EBRs and AMX-13s.
3. CN 90 F3: Bored-out 75 mm SA 50, which was the main gun used by the AMX-13 family until the 1960s. Case dimensions 90 x 598 mm.
4. CN 90 F4: The Super 90 used on the ERC-90 Sagaie and the VRC-90. It probably originated sometime in the early to mid 1970s. Same ammunition as the F3.

I think the AMX10RC is a little big to be comparable. The ERC-90 is much smaller but also two decades newer.

 

[Hammerbolt]

considering the AMX tank had a 105mm gun, and the EBR90 uses the same turret(FL10), so the FL12 105mm amx turret should fit on the EBR too

It's a good idea! I was so fixated on "cars" I forgot the AMX13. You'd have to check turret rings, but you might be able to fit the 13's 105mm turret on the EBR

The French had quite a lot of 90 mm light guns at the time.

1. CN 90 F1: The DEFA D921 as seen on the AML and the Ratel 90. Case dimensions 90 x 353 mm, the same ammunition as the Cockerill Mark 3 as seen on the Scorpion 90.
2. CN 90 F2: I think it was a bored-out 75 mm SA49, which was a relatively short 75 mm gun used on the early EBRs and AMX-13s.
3. CN 90 F3: Bored-out 75 mm SA 50, which was the main gun used by the AMX-13 family until the 1960s. Case dimensions 90 x 598 mm.
4. CN 90 F4: The Super 90 used on the ERC-90 Sagaie and the VRC-90. It probably originated sometime in the early to mid 1970s. Same ammunition as the F3.

I think the AMX10RC is a little big to be comparable. The ERC-90 is much smaller but also two decades newer.

I know, I ws looking for complete vehicles. But you did ask for "14-15 ton 8x8." The 10RC is only a ton heavier...

 

[Bougnas]

Two issues with the Manticore TL right now:

1. The Medium 40-ton tanks that were introduced as roughly Panther equivalents in 1943 are still in use with some expeditionary forces (not committed to land war against the Soviets in Europe) and need to be upgraded. They were armed with 90 mm M3 tank guns. What would be a reasonable gun to upgrade to around 1960? Manticore has a 90 mm L/50 mid-pressure smoothbore (T132) that was used to upgrade tanks originally armed with 76 mm M1 guns, so that would be the lower end of what is possible. The upper end (the possibly unattainable goal) would be a 105 mm L7. The Medium 40-ton tank has been conceptualized as very similar to the Japanese Type 61, and that can get a 105 mm L7 as its upgrade gun in World of Tanks. Turret ring diameter is the same as the Sherman or Pershing, 1753 mm, so the largest gun possible might be a mid-pressure 105 mm gun like the CN 105 D1 on the M51 Super Shermans.

2. Manticoran light tanks have been based on the light chassis, so they work within pretty tough weight constraints (15-20 tons max) compared to early Cold War light tanks like the Bulldog. The wheeled chassis is somewhat larger than the Studebaker T27 or the Sd Kfz 234 and similar in size to the Terrapin amphibious vehicle. It has an upper weight limit of roughly 12 to 13 tons and is not amphibious. These light tanks use a 76 mm hi-lo pressure gun, firing the same shells as a contemporary recoilless gun. I don't think this size vehicle would be able to go up to a 90 mm hi-lo gun, and even if it could it is already getting pretty old. The replacement wheeled chassis is larger and amphibious, similar to the OT-64 SKOT. At the time, the AML-90 was entering service with a 90 mm light gun, but that is a 7 ton vehicle compared to this new 14-15 ton 8x8. I don't think the bigger 90 mm L/50 would be an option for a wheeled vehicle. Are there any options in this time period that would be somewhere in the middle?

1. L7 (and de facto 110 EXP-7 which has the same internal dimensions) is the upper bound technically yes. If you feel like it might be a little too big, medium pressure 105s or 90mm smoothbores will do.

2. 15-20t will happily use a 105 HEAT thrower like the D1504 of the AMX-13-105, and arguably even stronger.
There was a proposal for another modernization of the EBR in 1962 with a 105 at 800-900 m/s HEAT much like the ERAC.

 

[Not James Stockdale]

1. L7 (and de facto 110 EXP-7 which has the same internal dimensions) is the upper bound technically yes. If you feel like it might be a little too big, medium pressure 105s or 90mm smoothbores will do.

I just like the way the WoT Type 61 with 105 mm Rifled Gun looks. I don't know what the Type 61's turret ring diameter was or if that mounting would actually be possible. The smallest turret diameters I know that mounted the 105 mm L7 were the 180 cm T-55 and 185 cm M47. A 175 cm turret ring diameter on the Medium 40-ton is not set in stone, but it is the same as the Sherman and Pershing.

2. 15-20t will happily use a 105 HEAT thrower like the D1504 of the AMX-13-105, and arguably even stronger.
There was a proposal for another modernization of the EBR in 1962 with a 105 at 800-900 m/s HEAT much like the ERAC.

I think I'm going to retcon the 20-ton 1954 tank with the 90 mm L/50 smoothbore. The 15-ton 1950 light tank is probably going to be out of service before too much longer. Right now, I don't know if anything short of the 90 mm L/50 would be enough of an improvement over the current 90 mm light gun to warrant a replacement, except wartime construction anti-tank guns might not be in the greatest condition after fifteen years in service and I only need a few dozen of the new wheeled light tanks.

 

[eretzyegern]

For the Brazilian timeline I am writing I was wondering someone could do or suggests armoured fighting vehicles for the following contexts :

- Brazilian indigenously developed armoured fighting vehicles for a Lobster War against France gone "hot". Alternatively, who would supply Brazil BEFORE the war starts obviously excluding the Warsaw Pact because we are in America's backyard.

- Armoured fighting vehicles for the Konfrontasi for both sides : Indonesia (supported by China and the Warsaw Pact) and the UK, Malaysia, Singapore etc (supported by the United States)

Approximately early 1960s.

 

[marathag]

For the Brazilian timeline I am writing I was wondering someone could do or suggests armoured fighting vehicles for the following contexts :

- Brazilian indigenously developed armoured fighting vehicles for a Lobster War against France gone "hot". Alternatively, who would supply Brazil BEFORE the war starts obviously excluding the Warsaw Pact because we are in America's backyard.

- Armoured fighting vehicles for the Konfrontasi for both sides : Indonesia (supported by China and the Warsaw Pact) and the UK, Malaysia, Singapore etc (supported by the United States)

Approximately early 1960s.

Earlier effort on the X1A upgrades of existing M3 Stuarts

 

[Hammerbolt]

I'm not sure Brasil has the industry & design bureaus to create armour from scratch that early. Most of their projects seem to start around that time, and they are for light armoured cars and such. Maybe an upgrade on the Shermans, fitting them with more modern guns; there were severall such conversions post war, althought most with french guns...

If Indonesis is suported by China/warpact then that one is easy, only depends on how much such allies want to trust them. You have everything from refited T-34/85 and SU-100 to the T-55, plus BTR-50 for the infantry. Pack them up and ship them off. Malasya and Singapore can get (depending on funding and availability) Centurions and M48 for MBT, Saladin armoured cars or refited M24. If the US can't/won't supply M113 APC (construction just started), get Saracen APC, or even some of the many M3 halftracks in storage.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

Brazil had surplus US WW2 equipment, notably Stuarts and Greyhounds when it comes to vehicles.

Brazilian AFVs like the Cascavels, Urutus, X1as, and Jararacas didn't come around until the 70s.

 

[Guilherme Loureiro]

Earlier effort on the X1A upgrades of existing M3 Stuarts

First efforts to develop armoured vehicles in Brazil started around... 1966-7, IIRC, with the X1A, Cascavel and Urutu appearing around the second half of the 70s. So you'd have to start things in the early 50s to get Brazilian AFVs by the Lobster War.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

Has anyone ever done any atl AFV designs for North Korea?

 

[Claymore]

Has anyone ever done any atl AFV designs for North Korea?

Not yet but a good source of whacky possibilities! 🤔

 

[cortz#9]

Not yet but a good source of whacky possibilities! 🤔

"whacky", I like that.

 

[Hammerbolt]

Just an idea based on Germany's E tank-family program: a flakpanzer based on the E100 hull. Slapped a twin-55mm Coelian turret and a twin-30mm Kubelblitz turret. I think I got the proportions more or less ok, but I might have to enlarge the Coelian turret.

 

[marathag]

Just an idea based on Germany's E tank-family program: a flakpanzer based on the E100 hull. Slapped a twin-55mm Coelian turret and a twin-30mm Kubelblitz turret. I think I got the proportions more or less ok, but I might have to enlarge the Coelian turret.

Should have room for the twin 128mm Flak with the size of that hull

 

[Hammerbolt]

Should have room for the twin 128mm Flak with the size of that hull

Yeah but I wanted a defense against air support aircraft (Tempest, Sturmovik, etc) not a heavy bomber killer.

 

[Bougnas]

It was found recently that the Dutch company DAF worked on various IFV proposals called PIGV, to provide an IFV for 1975. The Dutch were also talking with the British, Belgians and Italians to field a common IFV. This was effectively a lighter Marder 1 with a 600hp version of the 8V-71T (note that this engine was only offered at 500hp for the Bradley) and the 25mm KBA gun. The British specified a 30mm gun (their Rarden) and...7.62 miniturrets (how many times will I have to teach you this lesson old man?).

Instead the Dutch eventually acquired the AIFV, the Belgians bought AIFV later, Italy only developped export IFVs until the Dardo, and Britain skipped the 70s and only adopted Warrior much later. This could have been a golden opportunity to field a critical mass of a standard IFV in 1975 to remain cheap and possibly spread to other countries (Greece, Turkey), but alas...

 

[wietze]

It was found recently that the Dutch company DAF worked on various IFV proposals called PIGV, to provide an IFV for 1975. The Dutch were also talking with the British, Belgians and Italians to field a common IFV. This was effectively a lighter Marder 1 with a 600hp version of the 8V-71T (note that this engine was only offered at 500hp for the Bradley) and the 25mm KBA gun. The British specified a 30mm gun (their Rarden) and...7.62 miniturrets (how many times will I have to teach you this lesson old man?).

Instead the Dutch eventually acquired the AIFV, the Belgians bought AIFV later, Italy only developped export IFVs until the Dardo, and Britain skipped the 70s and only adopted Warrior much later. This could have been a golden opportunity to field a critical mass of a standard IFV in 1975 to remain cheap and possibly spread to other countries (Greece, Turkey), but alas...

interesting, i knew they were offering a competitor to the YPR-765, never knew how it looked like (and in hindsight it was realised it would have been cheaper to buy the DAF product, since the usual american price-increase afterwards applied)