Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3

[deLanglade]

Norwegian Truge Update:

The cleats have finally made it onto the tracks - all 64 of them. The current batch of WIP should give you a good idea of what the finished Truge will look like although the model still needs a bit of cleaning up and the Colt M/29 machine gun added. This in itself is a little bit of an issue as the Norwegian Colt M/29 (itself a licenced copy of the Browning M1917) and re-chambered to take the Norwegian 7.92 x 61mm round was a jacketed, water-cooled affair which is not a good fit for a turret-mounted weapon. I strongly suspect that the Norwegians would have gone for the Colt MG38BT (a derivative of the 1928 series but with an air-cooled barrel and specifically designed for use in tanks - very much like the Browning 1919A2) converted to take the standard Norwegian round. A model of the M1919A2 would work perfectly but alas I don't have one state-side (loads of the little blighters back home!)

As always, a spray of undercoat will help bring everything together. 👍

In the meantime...

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That is just stunning. It actually looks plausible sitting there. I can see it waddling across the drifting snow right now.

On the armament side of things, I might have about the easiest cheat you could hope for. Turns out, the Norwegians adopted the Hotchkiss heavy MG in 1898, chambered in their 6.5x55 cartridge. https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotchkiss_mitraljøse_M1898

So, even though the .50 Browning won't work, the Hotchkiss that came with the kit will be perfect. We just have to close our eyes, click our heels together three times, and retcon the story to say the Norwegians armed the Truges with old MG pulled out of reserve stocks. Elegant solution to the problem, eh?

Much more elegant than, say, a workshop-modified gun mantlet that mounted the .50 Browning vaguely parallel to the angled cheek plates on the turret, having it either (depending on your perception ) cockeyed to one side, or offset in a turret that looked oddly lopsided. The gun now has clearance to feed, tough the gunner/commander/loader/cook and bottle washer had to stand off to one side, craning his neck to see the sights. The charging handle would have to be cut back, and a crude ring welded onto the stub. A length of stout cord or cable would be hooked to the ring, and routed through a pulley riveted to one of the spade grips, allowing the gun to be charged from the side. Imagine the starter handle on a lawnmower....

 

[marathag]

suggest that the Pz.38 (t) be converted into an SPG similar to the StuG. and this leads to the StuH 38 (t) and this...

reason for right hand drive rather than left?

 

[cortz#9]

reason for right hand drive rather than left?

The Pz.38 had driver on the right hand, for sake of expediency I figured the Germans might not change it although they did do so with the Hetzer.

 

[Claymore]

That is just stunning. It actually looks plausible sitting there. I can see it waddling across the drifting snow right now.

On the armament side of things, I might have about the easiest cheat you could hope for. Turns out, the Norwegians adopted the Hotchkiss heavy MG in 1898, chambered in their 6.5x55 cartridge. https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotchkiss_mitraljøse_M1898

So, even though the .50 Browning won't work, the Hotchkiss that came with the kit will be perfect. We just have to close our eyes, click our heels together three times, and retcon the story to say the Norwegians armed the Truges with old MG pulled out of reserve stocks. Elegant solution to the problem, eh?

Thank you!

The Hotchkiss is certainly an easy and elegant solution, although I could get my hands on a M38BT/M1919A2 from my local store, if that would be a better solution?

 

[La Rouge Beret]

How much work is it to prepare a MBT or AFV to fight in a battlefield, where nuclear or chemical weapons have been used?

Would the crew rig positive pressure and fight in MOPP 4?

 

[Bougnas]

If anyone here has more sources from the Belgian military or Cockerill about the proposed license production program of the Renault D1 in 1931-32, I would like to have a look at them. It's a bit confusing due to the later tank buys from Belgium, so it seems to me that Cockerill was trying to snatch the license to get a leg up on the competition once the Army announces its mechanization plan.
France refused because of its obsession with keeping any new technology secret (the Schneider turret's casting), but I'm curious as to whether the Belgian Army would have accepted even if Cockerill got the license. I'm not sure they would be happy with this vehicle when the French already wanted a new version since 1930, it's rather heavy and expensive compared to the options they took later so was risky when Belgium never build "heavy" tanks before. The only advantage is that they have a license for it rather than having to wait for French deliveries like with the AMC. Maybe Renault could tell the French to also allow licensing of the D2, especially once they reduce their own order, but dunno.

That said, it would certainly be interesting if it worked, because Cockerill would gain enormous experience this way and foreign production of French military components at the time tended to feature higher quality materials and worksmanship. A Belgian D1/D2 might well be more reliable than a French version.

 

[Claymore]

How much work is it to prepare a MBT or AFV to fight in a battlefield, where nuclear or chemical weapons have been used?

Would the crew rig positive pressure and fight in MOPP 4?

Generally, any C-CBRN over-pressure and air-filtration system has to be designed into the vehicle from the get go as effectively retro fitting is nearly impossible and certainly more hassle than it is worth. The big advantage of an effective C-CBRN system is that, once buttoned down, the crew can continue to operate without the debilitating constraints of MOPP kit - only needing to suit up when exiting or entering the vehicle. For tankers in a CBRN environment, this will be never and for the dudes in an IFV, only when they absolutely must. For those vehicles without a C-CBRN over-pressure and air-filtration system, the crew will don and fight/operate in their MOPP kit as required. Not fun but a whole lot easier than trying to retrofit…

 

[deLanglade]

Thank you!

The Hotchkiss is certainly an easy and elegant solution, although I could get my hands on a M38BT/M1919A2 from my local store, if that would be a better solution?

M38BT/M1919A2. Makes more sense, the M1917's would have a more Browning-centric mount, probably.

But, it's out of my hands now. I planted the seed, and am content to to sit back and watch the garden grow. That said, since the .50 didn't fit, maybe a .55 Boys? My head canon has a 1940 newsreel that tells the story of plucky Norwegian patriots stopping the Nazi onslaught, with some footage of a troop of M1917's lighting up a Neubaufahrzeuge or two in Oslo.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Generally, any C-CBRN over-pressure and air-filtration system has to be designed into the vehicle from the get go as effectively retro fitting is nearly impossible and certainly more hassle than it is worth. The big advantage of an effective C-CBRN system is that, once buttoned down, the crew can continue to operate without the debilitating constraints of MOPP kit - only needing to suit up when exiting or entering the vehicle. For tankers in a CBRN environment, this will be never and for the dudes in an IFV, only when they absolutely must. For those vehicles without a C-CBRN over-pressure and air-filtration system, the crew will don and fight/operate in their MOPP kit as required. Not fun but a whole lot easier than trying to retrofit…

Thanks @Claymore

As I remember rigging positive pressure on a ship and then standing my watches in full MOPP kit on the bridge. Which truly sucked as my lens fogged up making it very hard to use my binoculars properly and therefore to fulfill my duties as an OOW. An overall miserable four hours...

Afterwards, I remember thinking that if I'm complaining about this, then I wonder what it's like for bucketheads operating in a much smaller space.

 

[Claymore]

M38BT/M1919A2. Makes more sense, the M1917's would have a more Browning-centric mount, probably.

But, it's out of my hands now. I planted the seed, and am content to to sit back and watch the garden grow. That said, since the .50 didn't fit, maybe a .55 Boys? My head canon has a 1940 newsreel that tells the story of plucky Norwegian patriots stopping the Nazi onslaught, with some footage of a troop of M1917's lighting up a Neubaufahrzeuge or two in Oslo.

A M1917 armed only with a Boys AT rifle would be, by itself, vulnerable to infantry attack, but as part of an integrated troop, it entirely makes sense - not unlike the Sherman and Firefly mix of the later war years. 👍🙂

 

[Claymore]

Norwegian Truge Update:

No WIP pics but have ordered some weapons accessories which should give me a M38BT/M1919A2 look-a-like and a Boys AT rifle to play with. In the meantime, the Truge is now sporting a nice covering of light grey undercoat. I have also manufactured the M1917‘s enhanced mantlet armour and my eventually be able to have an interchangeable weapons fit.

While waiting for the delivery, I have started on the Canadian Valentine Fire Support Vehicle - the Tamiya Valentine is a beautiful kit that goes together really well - I would highly recommend it to anyone wanting to tackle a Valentine. 👍

 

[cortz#9]

Norwegian Truge Update:

No WIP pics but have ordered some weapons accessories which should give me a M38BT/M1919A2 look-a-like and a Boys AT rifle to play with. In the meantime, the Truge is now sporting a nice covering of light grey undercoat. I have also manufactured the M1917‘s enhanced mantlet armour and my eventually be able to have an interchangeable weapons fit.

While waiting for the delivery, I have started on the Canadian Valentine Fire Support Vehicle - the Tamiya Valentine is a beautiful kit that goes together really well - I would highly recommend it to anyone wanting to tackle a Valentine. 👍

I always liked Tamiya kits. never built a British tank before, should give one a try someday.

 

[marathag]

I always liked Tamiya kits. never built a British tank before, should give one a try someday.

They are a joy to build. While older ones not up to the detail of the latest ones, all still look good on the shelf

 

[lionjedi1215]

Réservoir I -- Poulet
Réservoir II -- Autruche
Réservoir III -- Émeu
Réservoir IV -- Manchot
Réservoir V -- Manchot Empereur

Fighter -- Moineau
Tactical Bomber -- Pélican
Stratigic Bomber -- Albatros
Dive Bomber -- Faucon Pèlerin

Antichar Automoteur I -- Grenouille
Antichar Automoteur II -- Crapaud

Amphbious Tank -- Cygne

Frigate -- Saumon
Destroyer -- Truite
Cruiser -- Thon
Battlecruiser -- Maquereau
Battleship -- Morue
Aircraft Carrier -- Baleine
Submarine I -- Requin
Submarine II -- Orque
Naval Minelayer -- Poisson-globe

Troop Transport -- Chien
Armored Transport -- Limier
Amphibious Transport -- Tortue

Land Minelayer -- Gopher

Do these count?

 

[Claymore]

Réservoir I -- Poulet
Réservoir II -- Autruche
Réservoir III -- Émeu
Réservoir IV -- Manchot
Réservoir V -- Manchot Empereur

Fighter -- Moineau
Tactical Bomber -- Pélican
Stratigic Bomber -- Albatros
Dive Bomber -- Faucon Pèlerin

Antichar Automoteur I -- Grenouille
Antichar Automoteur II -- Crapaud

Amphbious Tank -- Cygne

Frigate -- Saumon
Destroyer -- Truite
Cruiser -- Thon
Battlecruiser -- Maquereau
Battleship -- Morue
Aircraft Carrier -- Baleine
Submarine I -- Requin
Submarine II -- Orque
Naval Minelayer -- Poisson-globe

Troop Transport -- Chien
Armored Transport -- Limier
Amphibious Transport -- Tortue

Land Minelayer -- Gopher

Do these count?

A list of names…? Count for what? 🤷‍♂️

 

[lionjedi1215]

A list of names…? Count for what? 🤷‍♂️

It's part of a Central Powers Victory Scenario
These are the French Tanks and other vehicles

 

[Claymore]

It's part of a Central Powers Victory Scenario
These are the French Tanks and other vehicles

I’m sorry, have I missed something? This thread is specifically for discussing AH AFVs, we are going to need a little more than a list of possible names which includes aircraft and ships! 😳

If in doubt, check out post #1 on the first page… 🙂

 

[isayyo2]

Even if the M7 with Cadillac powertrain and M24-level armor was still a bit too heavy, one could always continue redesigning it with features that went into the M24 to bring the weight further down, to avoid starting completely from scratch and causing further delays. It's worth remembering that the T49 which was developped over a similar timeframe was also extensively redesigned into the T70 (M18 Hellcat). If the M7 had followed a similar development path like I explained in the sentence before, then one could at minimum expect a new light in production by late 1943 like the M18, instead of not being fielded until late 1944 like the Chaffee.

I've always thought that the T49 or M18 would've been a good starting point for a Cavalry/Light Tank design. Had the prewar Cavalry leaders not been so against fighting for information and the economy of force missions, such a design would done very well in the early war.

 

[Monk78]

Had a weird idea of a long range desert patrol vehicle based on the TEL complex of FROG-7 rockets (ZIL-135)
Minus the rocket Ofcourse but several MG mounts and a couple of guys with rocket launchers and Grenada launchers
It has impressive cross country capability, average endurance and could probably be used for raiding and escorting convoys

 

[cortz#9]

Front view of sloped Tiger from post # 4,994 pg. 250.

Still needs work, this one's tricky cause I'm making it from small sections of other tank turrets and drawing stuff from scratch.