Alternative Cold War

Valdemar II

Banned
I was reading "WI; Germany postpones Operation Barbarossa", and it got me thinking WI Germany what if he decide to wait a year, but before that he end up in war with USA, and drop Operation Barbarossa. USSR made a fortune on selling material to Germany, and could through pure oppetunism decide not to invade. WWII turn into a desert war in North Africa before in 1945 after the defeat of Japan, the Allies and the Axis negotiate a Peace. UK keeps it's colonies, Vichy France get French North and West Africa, while the rest of Frances (and Belgiums) African colonies, Indochina, Syria and Indonesia becomes independent, while Free France keep the rest of Frances colonies. the Allies (including South America). The world is turned into camps a USA-Commowealth camp and a Germany-USSR camp. The relationship between Germany and USSR becomes in many way like a motherland-colony relationship, USSR send raw material to Germany while Germany send processed product* back. We now have a two way Cold War between a democratic bloc and a autoritarian bloc, instead of between a Capitalistic and Communist bloc**. The autoritarian bloc is lot more stable than the East bloc was in OTL at least economical, Germany will only get more stable in its sphere***, while USSR will not suffer the economical collaps with access to capitalistic marked and German investments. So we could see this bloc continue until a popular revolution stops it, or the conflict fizzles out like the Cold did for China, when they turn more reform friendly.

*Much like the trade relationship Between USSR and East Europe.

**Even through the result was in many way the same.

***and need to use fewer and fewer occupation troops.
 
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One big problem here (well, two actually): Hitler is going to attack the USSR eventually. It was the war he always wanted to fight. In Mein Kampf and in subsequent speeches and writings, he spells out a need for lebensraum for the German people. He also fanatically hated Communism, which he saw as a Jewish conspiracy. The other big issue, that goes along with this, is that Hitler, like Napoleon, was a compulsive gambler. He would keep attacking as long as he thought he could keep winning. If he saw an opportunity, or even if he thought he did, he would take it.
 
One big problem here (well, two actually): Hitler is going to attack the USSR eventually. It was the war he always wanted to fight. In Mein Kampf and in subsequent speeches and writings, he spells out a need for lebensraum for the German people. He also fanatically hated Communism, which he saw as a Jewish conspiracy. The other big issue, that goes along with this, is that Hitler, like Napoleon, was a compulsive gambler. He would keep attacking as long as he thought he could keep winning. If he saw an opportunity, or even if he thought he did, he would take it.

Its 1941, the U-[insert number] is off the East Coast of Canada waiting to attack the next convoy to leave port for Europe, suddenly an aircraft carrier escorted by cruisers and destroyers appear, the ensign of is not visible due to early morning fog. The U boat captain thinks it is an illustrious class aircraft carrier as part of the convoy escort and fires. The USS Ranger is no more.

The USA Declares war on Nazi Germany and Rommel and the general staff convinces Hitler to postpone Operation Barbarrosa until such time as the Occupied territories are pacified and sufficient coastal defenses (including Uboats and MTB's) and airforces are built up to make any invasion of the Continent unlikely to succeed.

After this it could probably follow along the lines suggested by Valdemar
 
One big problem here (well, two actually): Hitler is going to attack the USSR eventually. It was the war he always wanted to fight. In Mein Kampf and in subsequent speeches and writings, he spells out a need for lebensraum for the German people. He also fanatically hated Communism, which he saw as a Jewish conspiracy. The other big issue, that goes along with this, is that Hitler, like Napoleon, was a compulsive gambler. He would keep attacking as long as he thought he could keep winning. If he saw an opportunity, or even if he thought he did, he would take it.

From what I've read on Hitler (though not Mein Kampf - ought to ;)) he seems to have been obsessed with killing off the Soviets - hence the shock to the world when the non-aggression pact were announced.
It seems he wanted to finish off the boasting Poles then defeat France that had been responsible for Versailles and come to terms with the British whom he regarded as mere "nation of shopkeepers".
The campaigns in Scandinavia and in North Africa was mere side-shows but it was nice to have victorious generals in the cold as well as in the sun. Nazi propaganda crap about being able to fight in all environments.
And he'd use every possible means to achieve this.
Strangeland we absolutely agree.

Why then would he postpone Barbarossa?????????????????????????????

Getting bogged down in the Balkans? How? By whom?
Perhaps by having Crete being a BIG show-off by the Fallschirmjäger which could induce even more victory spirit in him as related by Redbeard in the other thread and make for at go at Suez by two or three prongs - Rommel, Fallschirmjäger AND a thrust through Turkey and Palestine!

But that last might fuel Stalin as it would close the Straits...;)
So a two pronged attack on Suez by Rommel and Fallschirmjäger and in case thats catastrophic we might see him pump up DAK to DO it!

Having US enter early on - the U-boat incident possibly, but build-up time would be substantial as OTL and in the meantime Hitler might just go for the Soviets anyway - victory spirit.

No - having taken out France in a 1940 campaign he'd go for the Soviets if he isn't bogged down.
The real threat to Barbarossa would be a WWI campaign in France - ask Redbeard about that.

So sorry - no cold Nazi/Soviet vs Western Allies war.
 
Concur, you have to take Hitler out of the equation, otherwise no postponing of Barbarossa. He was already fuming that he had to help the Duce out in Greece - and lost one month. And when already fighting Barbarossa, he had no problem of declaring war on the US.
 
Umm. Given Soviet achievements in engineering before, during, and after WW2, and its own industrial strength, how do they end up as German colonies?
 
Umm. Given Soviet achievements in engineering before, during, and after WW2, and its own industrial strength, how do they end up as German colonies?

If the Germans win quickly, before all that stuff can be put to proper use.

In a longer war, the Germans are in trouble.
 
One big problem here (well, two actually): Hitler is going to attack the USSR eventually. It was the war he always wanted to fight. In Mein Kampf and in subsequent speeches and writings, he spells out a need for lebensraum for the German people. He also fanatically hated Communism, which he saw as a Jewish conspiracy. The other big issue, that goes along with this, is that Hitler, like Napoleon, was a compulsive gambler. He would keep attacking as long as he thought he could keep winning. If he saw an opportunity, or even if he thought he did, he would take it.

The sky was clear and cold as the two leaders met, on the anniversary of the renewed Eurasian Pact against the warmongering Anglo-Americans. Cameras flashed and newsreel recorders whirred in the distance as President Göring and Secretary-General Krushchev shook hands on the landing pad, escorted by SS and KGB guards, respectively.

It had been two decades since the original Pact had been signed; both leaders were old men by now, Göring fat, Krushchev bald and bent with age. Yet the eyes of both shone with the vigour of their young empires, successfully challenging the older powers of the world.

What an ironic quirk of faith that the two countries that had most hated each other had united in such success. Oh, Göring knew how much of it was a result of his own work, of course. Could a Bavarian chicken farmer like Himmler have negotiated the alliance after the American attack? A loud-mouthed beefsteaker like Goebbels? A nobody like Hess? Of course not. It had taken his connections and political expertise.

Even so, however, the Führer, Adolph Hitler - Göring, an Old Comrade, didn't think of him with the near-religious veneration most did these days, but he had been a very great man - had taken the first step. He had said the Pact of 1939 had been a mere expediency, but that had never convinced Göring or the General Staff. What was Mein Kampf? The Leader's own fanciful writings, of no more importance to the movement than Rosenberg's ramblings or Wiligut's fraudulent esoterica. Hadn't the Leader himself said that power was itself the aim of National Socialism? Göring had agreed and understood, even if some of the others hadn't.

If he had lived to see this, though Göring as he pressed the rattish old Bolshie's hand. Asia, Africa and Europe united under their dual leadership. Surely he couldn't have hoped for more, even in his most inspired moments. If the Leader hadn't been treacherously murdered by the dastardly Frogs when he'd arrived to sign their accord, surely this would've been where his plans would've lead him eventually?
 
Umm. Given Soviet achievements in engineering before, during, and after WW2, and its own industrial strength, how do they end up as German colonies?

Lack of investment and modernisation in the long run. A healthily run, semi-capitalist Nazi Germany might conceivably assume great economic importance for the USSR, much like West Germany did for the DDR IOTL.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Umm. Given Soviet achievements in engineering before, during, and after WW2, and its own industrial strength, how do they end up as German colonies?

They don't, but economical the relationship will be like a motherland/colony relationship or between developed/undeveloped. Even through USSR occupied East Europe in OTL, they did have the same relationship with the East European economies, with USSR sending raw material to East Europe and getting processed products in return.
 
Why then would he postpone Barbarossa?????????????????????????????

Getting bogged down in the Balkans? How? By whom?

Maybe the Soviets intervening? Of course, you need above cordial relationships with the British to do that. That could bog down the Germans.
 
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