Alternative British Dakota

Millsy

imagine for a moment ww2 with us strictly neutral in 1940 so not going to sell any military equip to any belligerent.

In OTL the us supplied all transport aircraft not least the ubiquitous D.C.-3 Dakota.

Inspired by comments lost within the air ministry sanity thread what does raf transport command look like from outbreak of war ?

Bombays and Sparrow ?
 

NOMISYRRUC

Fokker had a licence to build Douglas aircraft including the DC3, which it sub-licenced to Airspeed therefore theoretically the Dakota could have been built in British or Commonwealth aircraft factories. IIRC the RAF obtained about 1,200 American built Dakotas, but I doubt that an equal number of these aircraft could be built in British or Commonwealth factories without building less of something else.

IIRC the British Empire and Commonwealth acquired tens of thousands of American built aircraft. If the Americans are refusing to sell any military equipment to any belligerent I don't see how the British and Commonwealth aircraft industry is going to fill the gap.
 

dave_r_gilbert

There are a couple of potential ways round the restriction.
1) Buy Dakota's as civilian aircraft, or medical humanitarian transports, and convert/use them as military transports while the USA isn't looking.
2) Buy lots of "spare parts", and bolt them together to make new aircraft.
3) Buy lots of "scrap", and bolt it together, either in the shape of a Dakota or something else that will go from A to B with stuff inside.
4) Set up a US shadow company, buy aircraft, and run a one-way airline.

As a last resort:
5) Make less of something else (unlikely to happen at all before '42 due to transport not being a high priority), and build De Havilland Flamingos (or something simpler) instead.
 

sonofpegasus

Without the Hudson being available then the De Hanilland Falmingo is probably the best substitute. Get Blackburn to build it instead of the Botha! lack of transport aircraft only really becomes apparent post 1940.
Another transport aircraft solution is to build powered versions of the Horsa and Hamilcar gliders. Both aircraft use little strategic industry and materials and can us second line engines. Two 1200hp Alvis Pelides engines on the Hamilcar should suffice (the Hamilcar X flew with two 900hp Mercury's with a limited payload) and a modified Horsa should be able to fly with the same engine. The De Haviland Albatross is another reasonable substitution for the DC3 in terms of passenger capacity and is again a wooden aircraft. Engine supplies might be a problem. Can the Gypsy 12 be massed produced without impinging on other engine production?
 

Just Leo

Post-war, Vickers built the Viking/Valetta. During the war, Armstrong-Whitworth built the Albemarle, aborted as a medium bomber, miscarried as a recce-bomber, and mutated into a "special" transport. Had they been designed as real transports, that might have filled some niche function.
 

Admiral Beez

Banned
How about license building the Bloch MB.220?

2_zps4fd95b1f.jpg


mb220-11.jpg
 

Deleted member 94680

dave_r_gilbert said:
There are a couple of potential ways round the restriction.
1) Buy Dakota's as civilian aircraft, or medical humanitarian transports, and convert/use them as military transports while the USA isn't looking.
2) Buy lots of "spare parts", and bolt them together to make new aircraft.
3) Buy lots of "scrap", and bolt it together, either in the shape of a Dakota or something else that will go from A to B with stuff inside.
4) Set up a US shadow company, buy aircraft, and run a one-way airline.

As a last resort:
5) Make less of something else (unlikely to happen at all before '42 due to transport not being a high priority), and build De Havilland Flamingos (or something simpler) instead.
Click to expand...

2) and 3) won't work as there are components of aircraft that you can't buy as spares or scrap. Most of the time it's the main spar or equivalent, which the aircraft's serial number is attached to. Provided that master component survives, so does the aircraft. It how aircraft can last for 20 odd years and be considered the same plane.
 
fluttersky

fluttersky

I clicked on this thread expecting it to be about the border between the US and British North America being further south, resulting in the Dakotas being British.

Turns out it's actually just about some military thing :/
 

Magnum

Treaty of Paris establishes the border west of the Great Lakes as starting from the Saint Louis River and then extending west on 46.70
upload_2017-4-21_14-42-40.png


Hey presto - British Dakota !

Oh, wait, wrong forum...
 

fastmongrel

Lots of Handley Page Sparrows.
large_000000.jpg


Later on build an earlier Bristol Freighter
3295525171f9a2d02e29ddb01d8890fa.jpg


Both are simple to build, rugged with a useful payload and decent rough field performance.
 

Nick P

Donor
There's a slight flaw here. Britain didn't order any DC3s until mid-1941, first ones arrived in October 1941. Assuming that Pearl Harbour happens as OTL then there's only a 4 month gap in that order happening.

We didn't actually need large troop transport aircraft until we were ready and planning for the Liberation of Europe. Until then we used all the old bombers - Vickers Valentia, Vickers Wellesley, Handley Page Harrow/Sparrow etc. and took over all the airliners in the country. We even impounded the Junkers sent to bring the German Ambassador back to Berlin in 1939!
Otherwise there were several bomber conversions during and after the war with the Avro York, Avro Lancastrian, Vickers Warwick Mk3, Vickers Viking, HP Hastings, HP Halifax/Halton.

Talking of Dakota (the state!) reminds me of how Lockheed got round the ban on selling military aircraft in 1940. The ban was on flying them to a belligerent nation so they were towed across the border!
http://bismarcktribune.com/news/col...cle_3fee7a32-2019-11e0-a0f8-001cc4c03286.html

I have long pondered the possibility of an early C-130 Hercules. Looks like a simple design but I think the main problem is the engine power available in 1940. It needed 3750hp per engine and even the Rolls Royce Merlin only got up to 1200hp.
 
marathag

marathag

Banned
Nick P said:
I have long pondered the possibility of an early C-130 Hercules. Looks like a simple design but I think the main problem is the engine power available in 1940. It needed 3750hp per engine and even the Rolls Royce Merlin only got up to 1200hp.
Click to expand...

In 1941 Wright started working on the R-4090, a two row 22 cylinder engine, 3000 HP with a two speed, single stage blower ,58" diameter, roughly 3200 pounds. It was sidelined so Wright could focus on the R-3350.

It wasn't as stressed as the R-3350, and used a steel crankcase rather than magnesium like the R-3350 that caused many of its problems. At the time, the R-3350 was running 2200HP reliably.
Without the B-29 program, it's likely this would have be developed alongside the R-3350 as a competitor the the P&W Wasp Major
 

Millsy

Just Leo said:
I just noticed this. RAF Transport Command was established in March, 1943.
Click to expand...
Fair point - what I should have said was what would the RAF option be for transport aircraft - hypothetically if they needed to support the bef for longer for example in 1940

Think answer is as I thought HP sparrows
 

Admiral Beez

Banned
Nick P said:
We didn't actually need large troop transport aircraft until we were ready and planning for the Liberation of Europe. Until then we used all the old bombers - Vickers Valentia, Vickers Wellesley, Handley Page Harrow/Sparrow etc.
Click to expand...
Older, twin-engined bombers do not make ideal transports though. Look at the tight space inside the Whitley for example.

parachutists-inside-Whitley.jpg
 

Redbeard

Banned
Nick P said:
There's a slight flaw here. Britain didn't order any DC3s until mid-1941, first ones arrived in October 1941. Assuming that Pearl Harbour happens as OTL then there's only a 4 month gap in that order happening.

We didn't actually need large troop transport aircraft until we were ready and planning for the Liberation of Europe. Until then we used all the old bombers - Vickers Valentia, Vickers Wellesley, Handley Page Harrow/Sparrow etc. and took over all the airliners in the country. We even impounded the Junkers sent to bring the German Ambassador back to Berlin in 1939!
Otherwise there were several bomber conversions during and after the war with the Avro York, Avro Lancastrian, Vickers Warwick Mk3, Vickers Viking, HP Hastings, HP Halifax/Halton.

Talking of Dakota (the state!) reminds me of how Lockheed got round the ban on selling military aircraft in 1940. The ban was on flying them to a belligerent nation so they were towed across the border!
http://bismarcktribune.com/news/col...cle_3fee7a32-2019-11e0-a0f8-001cc4c03286.html

I have long pondered the possibility of an early C-130 Hercules. Looks like a simple design but I think the main problem is the engine power available in 1940. It needed 3750hp per engine and even the Rolls Royce Merlin only got up to 1200hp.
Click to expand...

Isn't the main point about the C130 to be implemented the basic layout? I.e. loading and unloading through a ramp (nose wheel probably being a prerequisite). IMHO this basic feature will greatly increase the utility of any transport aircraft, no matter what engines it has, as long as they are strong enough to lift the plane with its cargo.

A decent STOL capacity built into your freighter would also be most handy as the combination of ramp and STOL would greatly increase how much and where you could supply through the air. But STOL would also be more about wing design, flaps etc. than engines.
 
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