Alternate WWI, and a better Mongolia

I'm going to cross-post this here from a topic I started in the pre-1900 forum. This suggests a way for Mongolia to grow, though I doubt it's plausibility. Any suggestions to make it better would be greatly appreciated (snarky comments I could do without, if you can help it :D). Imagine a POD sometime around or in the Franco-Prussian War.

It's a shame about Mongolia. I like that little country.

Just spitballing (I can resign myself to 'it's impossible', but hey, I'll try):

As an alternative, any way Mongolia can be more militant in the 20th Century? Mongolia survived not just because of Russian influence, but because it was a useful buffer state between Russia and China (even the Chinese could agree on that). Let's say WWI swings around and the Germans go all-out on Russia (France a shadow of its former self due to the Franco-Prussian War ending much differently). Russia splits into the Baltic States, Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Finland (+ Karellia), a Hohenzollern Tsar (controlling, say, St. Petersburg and northern Russia (think, Novgorod)) under German domination, the Romanov Tsar surviving in the east as Tsar of Siberia, and then in the middle a Soviet Union made up of Central Asian steppe countries and parts of the old Russian Empire? Mongolia picks up a piece here and there and a slight population boost of Kazakhs and Turkmen escaping the *USSR (obviously butterflies change that a little), and Monarchists who see no hope in a Siberian Empire.

In this same war, Britain isn't involved, so Japan sides with Germany and together they attack China (who tries to get rid of foreign basing rights to avoid being involved, ironically). Britain later joins in on the fun (perhaps to do with the Ottomans, or threat of Hong Kong being occupied, etc.), making 3 powerful countries invading China, so then Mongolia, as with Russia, picks up what it can, using Mongolians in Inner Mongolia as supporters (there's a possibility here). Near the end of the war a radical uprising occurs in China to try and get peace after much of China (including all of the important cities, like Beijing, Shanghai and Najing) is occupied. The Kaiser and the Japanese Emperor set up a puppet Qing Empire (think Kaiserreich) while the rest falls to the Chinese Republic. The Uighurs in Sinkiang declare independence with British support and Tibet enlarges.

Any way I can make it more plausible? Or is it way off the mark?
 

abc123

Banned
I'm going to cross-post this here from a topic I started in the pre-1900 forum. This suggests a way for Mongolia to grow, though I doubt it's plausibility. Any suggestions to make it better would be greatly appreciated (snarky comments I could do without, if you can help it :D). Imagine a POD sometime around or in the Franco-Prussian War.



Any way I can make it more plausible? Or is it way off the mark?

Russia must be not too strong and China pretty weak if you want independent Mongolia.
After all, Mongolia was part of China until 1912 IIRC. And Russia then was stronger than China, and China was weak. Kuomintang still claims Mongolia as part of China.
So IMO, independence of Mongolia is more historical phenomene than rule, and you can't have greater or stronger Mongolia ( with inner Mongolia ) without provoking enimity of China, and China is waaaaay stronger than Mongolia.
So, maybe with balkanised Russia AND China, somewhat stronger Mongolia is possible.
But, because isn't real to expect that China and Russia will forever remain balkanised, it's better for Mongolia not to be too strong.
;)
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Both Russia and China fall into complete warlordism. In that case Bogd Khan and baron Ungern von Sternberg conquer some neighboring warlords is not completely ASB.
 
Both Russia and China fall into complete warlordism. In that case Bogd Khan and baron Ungern von Sternberg conquer some neighboring warlords is not completely ASB.

Aye, this is what I was getting at. In the alternate WWI, with Japan and Germany both attacking China, and then eventually Britain, warlordism is huge in China and the Mongols eventually take advantage of it by occupying Inner Mongolia and other provinces. Sinkiang (or Uighuristan) declares independence, and then the Germans and Japs set up the Qing Empire focussed around Nanjing. Of course, the Japs annex areas such as Chinese Manchuria (and parts of the Russian Far East) and coastal areas of China, and the Germans probably enlarge their holdings to encompass all of Shantung, but the rest eventually falls under the control of a republican government too corrupt and weak to make any real claims to Mongolia.

Russia is currently three primary countries and probably wouldn't unify in a hurry (Novgorod, Central Asian USSR and the Siberian Tsar).
 

birdboy2000

Banned
Mongolia in the 20th century has the unfortunate position of being trapped between two enormous powers. Perhaps with a bit of luck and a government not beholden to Russia it could've grabbed Inner Mongolia, perhaps if Russia *really* imploded it could've grabbed Buryatia as well. But even if it does all that, it'll just be a little more influential than OTL: there just aren't enough Mongols for a Mongol-wank in this era, and cavalry isn't what it used to be.
 

abc123

Banned
Mongolia in the 20th century has the unfortunate position of being trapped between two enormous powers. Perhaps with a bit of luck and a government not beholden to Russia it could've grabbed Inner Mongolia, perhaps if Russia *really* imploded it could've grabbed Buryatia as well. But even if it does all that, it'll just be a little more influential than OTL: there just aren't enough Mongols for a Mongol-wank in this era, and cavalry isn't what it used to be.


Yap. Exactly that.
;)
 
I'm going to cross-post this here from a topic I started in the pre-1900 forum. This suggests a way for Mongolia to grow, though I doubt it's plausibility. Any suggestions to make it better would be greatly appreciated (snarky comments I could do without, if you can help it :D). Imagine a POD sometime around or in the Franco-Prussian War.



Any way I can make it more plausible? Or is it way off the mark?

If you want the POD in the Franco-Prussian War, maybe Russia can join France in an alliance, For Some Reason, and they get defeated by Germany too. They suffer a similar fate to the French, with domestic turmoil, and an early revolution comes, followed by civil war. The losers could retreat to Mongolia and strengthen it, then be in a better position to take advantage of China's woes (Boxer Rebellion or Warlordism).

The problem is finding a good reason for Russia to ally with France in 1870, when no one else would. It may also be unplausible for Prussia/Germany to bea Russia as swiftly and decisively as they did France.
 
Well I imagined France fighting it out for longer ITTL so Prussia loses more men and more 'German blood' is spilt. When they eventually come to the peace table, say in 1874, they take more of France and the French government is even more weak and corrupt than OTL. So Britain never joins the Entente, which is why France and Russia are so thoroughly smashed come WWI*. WWI still happens due to a nationalist insurgence in the Balkans, this time with Greece and Bulgaria swapping sides, and Italy being on the CPs. Soon enough the war spills over into the Ottoman Empire (siding with Russia and France, especially with Greece on Germany's team) and the Turks are attacked by Greece, Italy and eventually the British invade when the fear of an Arab rebellion spills into Egypt.

Japan joins earlier on, attacking Russia in the east, and then Germany and Japan declare war on China after China attempts to prevent foreign trade to try and stay out of the war (fail). Germany and Japan attack China, Britain gets involved in this fight too, fearing for Hong Kong, and eventually China implodes in the same way Russia did. The Mongol minority in Inner Mongolia rises up, Mongolia Proper recieves an influx of immigrants from Turkic Steppe Countries escaping the oppression of the communist empire, the Uighurs in Sinkiang attempt to form a government with British support, and eventually everyone comes out of it looking a hundred times different than before. The Qing Empire is a small nation surrounding Nanjing, and Mongolia is now bigger than China, so to speak.

Not so much a wank, just a better Mongolia.
 
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