Alternate WW2

JJohnson

Banned
I'm placing this here because I'm assuming it requires a PoD before 1900.

What would it take for an alternate France to evolve as Germany did from the late 19th century, say 1871?

How could France be diplomatically isolated enough to anger enough parties that it will start a war that it gets blamed for much like Germany after WW1? And then stews with some form of a Versailles Treaty until revanchism leads to another war?

I'm assuming that France allies with at least Japan and at least more than one country in Europe.

Assuming France does everything it can, what's the best they can do in a World War against the United Kingdom and Germany at a minimum, with at least Italy and Japan on their side, and possibly Spain, Portugal, and possibly Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and/or Yugoslavia?
 
A good POD might be having Frederick III survive longer and make Germany develop into a more Liberal style of government and better relations with the United Kingdom which eventually evolves into an alliance whic latter on encompassates Portugal, Austria-Hungary and Spain. In response France allies with Italy and Russia. So WW1 starts as it did in OTL except this time it's France declaring war on the side of Russia against Austria-Hungary and Serbia. France tries an invasion of Germany via Belgium which brings the UK to the war. The war develops similar to OTL ending when the Untied States intervene on the side of Germany bringing the war to an end with the capture of Paris. In the end the French are forced to cede Normandy to the UK and Burgundy to Germany and some southern regions to Spain as well as all of its colonies which are dividied between the allies. Italy is forced to cede back Lombardia to Austria-Hungary and basically collpases itself into a North Italy which is a puppet of Austria and South Italy which goes communist. The Russian Revolution fails in this timeline as depite Russia being defeated the Kaiser is not willing to let a fellow monarchy fall to the red threat. The Russian Civil War ends in a white victory and with Alexei installed as the Tzar of Russia. Seems a good start. Now I wonder who might be the Hitler analogue we get in France?
 
Why Burgundy? Alsace-Lorraine could be given to Germany, permanently.

Alsace-Lorraine is probably already in German hands. But probably instead of Burgundy in german hands. We can have an independent Burgundy which probably makes more sense as well as an independent Brittany. Either way France's analogue to Hitler will most likely manage to reabsorbe these nations in WW2 when it happens.
 
hitler analogue - Charles de Gaulle?:D

Maybe de Gaulle could be in TL the Hitler analouge although butterflies could change that. Most likely we get somebody that is not from OTL. Maybe in TL Hitler himself is born in France François Hitler anybody?:D
 
I'm fairly sure that the Britain of that period wouldn't want to annex mainland Normandy. Maybe Dunkirk and perhaps even Calais (both of which we'd also held before, and more recently), as footholds through which we could send troops if France misbehaved again, but otherwise we'd settle for colonies...
 
France has a couple of major issues Germany does not here:

1) France already did have a long track record of provoking anti-French alliances on the part of all of Europe and giving as good as or better than it got. You can summarize the history of Bourbon Absolutism to the First Bonapartist State in precisely this fashion.

2) WWII was a very dramatic exception to the rule, but if we have to find such an example, we have this IOTL with the Napoleonic Wars: a huge continental general European war involving massed armies, an ideological approach to war, the Anglo-democracy choosing a peripheral strategy, a failed invasion of Russia beginning on 22 June despite immense attempts to forestall logistical disaster, and Russian troops capturing the capital of the enemy state.
 
I'm placing this here because I'm assuming it requires a PoD before 1900.

What would it take for an alternate France to evolve as Germany did from the late 19th century, say 1871?

How could France be diplomatically isolated enough to anger enough parties that it will start a war that it gets blamed for much like Germany after WW1? And then stews with some form of a Versailles Treaty until revanchism leads to another war?

I'm assuming that France allies with at least Japan and at least more than one country in Europe.

Assuming France does everything it can, what's the best they can do in a World War against the United Kingdom and Germany at a minimum, with at least Italy and Japan on their side, and possibly Spain, Portugal, and possibly Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and/or Yugoslavia?

France has one issue Germany does not: it is vastly easier for France's enemies to cripple France than it would be for Germany's enemies to cripple Germany.
 

JJohnson

Banned
France has one issue Germany does not: it is vastly easier for France's enemies to cripple France than it would be for Germany's enemies to cripple Germany.

Really? Howso?

I know France has done remarkably well militarily a number of times in the past, but what kind of build-up would they need to muster to put up a decent fight? And which allies would give them the best helping hands?
 
Really? Howso?

I know France has done remarkably well militarily a number of times in the past, but what kind of build-up would they need to muster to put up a decent fight? And which allies would give them the best helping hands?

Putting up a decent fight is one thing, having the material to put up a long, drawn out fight is another.

France simply does not have that in the Industrial Age to the extent it does earlier.

It's enemies have "more of it*", it has "less of it", than before.

* resources and power, basically. Not in absolute terms, but relative to the pie. And a France with meaningful sized chunks of territory it wants to take back absorbed by other states will be even weaker.
 
Hitler Analogue = Napoléon, Prince Imperial's son. Youd have to have another POD though with him having a son though.
You could have France ally with Sweden, that gets them iron and some other resources while the (Ottomans, assuming they dont get there buts kicked in WW1 and ally with Germany,) could go the way of OTL Italy and become a bad guy and give them oil.
 
France has one issue Germany does not: it is vastly easier for France's enemies to cripple France than it would be for Germany's enemies to cripple Germany.

I'm not so sure. A fascist France isn't in that bad a position. They share a border with Spain which will allow them to provide a lot more support for the Spanish fascists. France will close the Straight of Gibraltar or even take Gibraltar directly possibly bringing Spain in on their side. With the Straight closed France controls both sides of the Med. The only way for the British to reach Egypt is all the way around Africa and France is in good position for taking Egypt and the Suez from the British before they can build up their forces there. In the north if they strike quickly they can take the low countries and seal off their ports forcing any invasion to come through Germany or a D-Day style invasion (unlikely in the early years of the war).

Fascist Spain isn't a concern as it will either remain neutral or join them. Fascist Italy guards their flank and expands eastward into the Balkans and Greece. Germany has the same problem it does in our WWII, it's sandwiched between the Soviet Union and a hostile France. France has sealed the Mediterranean and unlike Germany has their empire to draw upon for resources. Their only hostile border is between France and Germany. What France really needs is for the Soviet Union to go to war with Germany dividing their attention. Then they sue for peace promising to free the non-french speaking areas of the low countries in exchange for keeping their Mediterranean and African gains. As long as they don't do something stupid like try and conquer Germany their biggest challenges are going to be avoiding a long drawn-out war they don't have the industry to support and the immense Atlantic coastline they're going to have to defend from the British navy.
 

Incognito

Banned
A good POD might be having Frederick III survive longer and make Germany develop into a more Liberal style of government and better relations with the United Kingdom which eventually evolves into an alliance
Why would the type of government Germany has matter to UK? My understanding from various threads was that UK was interested in keeping down continental powers that could potentially rival the British Isles. Thats why UK had rival relations with France when German states were weak and allied with France when the German Empire became a substantial power house.
 

Incognito

Banned
What's with the flies on the Prince's Imperial Standard? :confused:

640px-Imperial_Standard_of_Napol%C3%A9on_Eug%C3%A8ne_Bonaparte.svg.png
 
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