Alternate Weapons of War thread...

[Marc Pasquin]

Though it is no doubt a creative and original design, even the improved version strikes me as rather unergonomic and technically too complicated. One of the main things a standard issue rifle needs is to be effective, but not too complicated to assemble/disaassemble if one needs to check it or repair it in a short amount of time. A gravity-fed magazine, like on some OTL bipod machine guns, is certainly doable, but for an assault rifle, it's a little too unconventional. If upside-down gun construction was so easy and reliable, especially for mass-produced, standard issue firearms, you'd see a lot more of it in OTL.

As I mentioned I know very little about gun and gun design despite the fact, somewhat embarrassingly, that in my army cadet time I actually got a marksman qualification.

I do appreciate you guys' suggestions since I'd rather have a minimum of plausibility while at the same time having WTO and NorAtPac forces both have a half familiar / half distinctive appearance compared to the OTL counterpart.

About the ergonomic aspect, it occur to me that one advantage could be in regard to the recoil. Unlike normal "main body on top" rifles where it is absorbed back in a straight line, the canon being lower would actually make it be absorbed up and diagonally and diffused on a slightly larger surface. At the same time, one downside from this design that simultaneously occurs me is that repeated firing would have a tendency to increasingly go downward for the same reason. I wonder if there would be a way to compensate for that ?

Regarding the feeding system, is a gravity fed system more complicated then one that push up bullets or is the gravity system worse for other reason like for example jamming ? As you said that type of magazine placement is clearly not popular OTL but depending if it's a cost or effectiveness problem, It might be justified in story: A less efficient but cheaper rifle could simply be the result of a government contract going to the lowest bidder who achieve this bid only by cutting corner.

Also, is the added complexity of a gun like the one I showed because the grip-&-trigger system is on top ? I wonder if it would make a big difference if it was a single large piece of metal with only the 2 hand grips having a wood/plastic covering ? Similarly, would a single piece shaped butt take down the apparent complexity ?

One last question, while I can see the disadvantages, can anyone think of advantages for this type of design ? The reason why I like this design is entirely aesthetic but I assume that those who made the Konstantinov SA-01 must have thought, even if they were later proven wrong, that it could help in some ways. The only thing I can come up, and not a huge one, is that since the casings would be ejected lower, it might solve the problem of left-handed soldiers using a gun that eject right since the casings wouldn't fly across their field of vision.

There were some Kalashnikov and other rifle bullpup projects developed in the East Block in OTL. If you want, I can show you the prototype of the Sa-58 bullpup variant, or a Soviet Korobov SMG.

cheers for that.

Googling Korobov, the TKB-022P & TKB-022PM look interesting but because in terms of look they seem closer to weapons that only became common decades later (the feeling being stronger because of the tiny barrel), I'm afraid that using them will look like I'm introducing advance weaponry to the Warsaw Treaty Organisation in the mid-20th century, regardless of their historical existence, verisimilitude and all that. The TKB-022 somewhat doesn't feel visually distinctive enough compared to an OTL AK-47 but the TKB-408 on the other hand is closer to what I have in mind.

regarding the Sa-58, is this the one you meant ?

It's further away from the AK-47 then the TKB-408 but since the standard weapon used but WTO forces is not supposed, in-story, to be based on the designs of Mikhail Kalashnikov, I could try to combine some elements of both.

 

[Petike]

As I mentioned I know very little about gun and gun design despite the fact, somewhat embarrassingly, that in my army cadet time I actually got a marksman qualification.

I'm not a gun historian or gun design savvy person either.

I do appreciate you guys' suggestions since I'd rather have a minimum of plausibility while at the same time having WTO and NorAtPac forces both have a half familiar / half distinctive appearance compared to the OTL counterpart.

Yes.

About the ergonomic aspect, it occur to me that one advantage could be in regard to the recoil. Unlike normal "main body on top" rifles where it is absorbed back in a straight line, the canon being lower would actually make it be absorbed up and diagonally and diffused on a slightly larger surface. At the same time, one downside from this design that simultaneously occurs me is that repeated firing would have a tendency to increasingly go downward for the same reason. I wonder if there would be a way to compensate for that ?

Regarding the feeding system, is a gravity fed system more complicated then one that push up bullets or is the gravity system worse for other reason like for example jamming ? As you said that type of magazine placement is clearly not popular OTL but depending if it's a cost or effectiveness problem, It might be justified in story: A less efficient but cheaper rifle could simply be the result of a government contract going to the lowest bidder who achieve this bid only by cutting corner.

Also, is the added complexity of a gun like the one I showed because the grip-&-trigger system is on top ? I wonder if it would make a big difference if it was a single large piece of metal with only the 2 hand grips having a wood/plastic covering ? Similarly, would a single piece shaped butt take down the apparent complexity ?

I think the positioning of the barrel itself, and how it affects the rest of the innards, could be the main issue when it comes to complexity. I'm pretty sure if there was an equal advantage to having the barrel slung under the rest of the gun, someone would have already have produced military guns like that. But no one ever has, virtually not once.

Having the barrel positioned so low means that you might feel like you're "firing from the hip" even if you have the sights nicely lined up, at eye height. I can imagine a lot of soldiers would feel weird shooting from a gun where the centre of recoil and centre of balance is somewhere lower, around upper belly height, instead of chest height. And imagine trying to shoot with that thing while you're trying to lie low or in cover. The barrel would be touching the ground or almost touching it for much of the time, and due to its low position, many of the shots could unnecessarily graze the ground, instead of allowing the bullets to travel at least slightly above ground. Anyone carrying this sort of rifle and trying to lie down in cover would be an easy target for soldiers with a normally positioned firearm barrel.

One last question, while I can see the disadvantages, can anyone think of advantages for this type of design ? The reason why I like this design is entirely aesthetic but I assume that those who made the Konstantinov SA-01 must have thought, even if they were later proven wrong, that it could help in some ways. The only thing I can come up, and not a huge one, is that since the casings would be ejected lower, it might solve the problem of left-handed soldiers using a gun that eject right since the casings wouldn't fly across their field of vision.

That's one good point. However, in OTL, there have already been assault rifle types that are designed with an ambidextrous configuration in mind - depending on the soldier's preference, he can switch to letting the casings fly out and drop to the right or the left. Not sure if mid-century guns can be designed to work like that, but by the 1970s, certain assault rifle (including the Steyr Aug) were designed to not discriminate left-handed usage, if one wanted to reconfigure them that way.

Googling Korobov, the TKB-022P & TKB-022PM look interesting but because in terms of look they seem closer to weapons that only became common decades later (the feeling being stronger because of the tiny barrel), I'm afraid that using them will look like I'm introducing advance weaponry to the Warsaw Treaty Organisation in the mid-20th century, regardless of their historical existence, verisimilitude and all that. The TKB-022 somewhat doesn't feel visually distinctive enough compared to an OTL AK-47 but the TKB-408 on the other hand is closer to what I have in mind.

I see.

A few more pictures:
Korobov TKB-022PM, (1), (2) (Krall did a Korobov-inspired assault rifle years ago.)
Korobov TKB-011 (Lengthier cousin of the above.) (1), (2), (3)

Your qualms about them looking perhaps a bit too advanced are all right. Still, there are the occassional OTL examples of rifles that look some 20 years into the future compared to the time they were actually designed in. Case in point, the old British EM-1 and EM-2 prototypes. These come from the late 1940s and early 1950s. (Some of their bolt parts might be a bit hard for disassembly if they ever became standard issue guns, though...) And the Korobov TKB-048 was also designed around 1948, so it isn't exactly futuristic, even for your setting.

regarding the Sa-58, is this the one you meant ?

Yes.

It's further away from the AK-47 then the TKB-408 but since the standard weapon used by WTO forces is not supposed, in-story, to be based on the designs of Mikhail Kalashnikov, I could try to combine some elements of both.

I had similar conundrums when I was designing a blend of Soviet and American spacecraft design for an ATL space programme.

Thing is, the Czechoslovak Sa 58 assault rifle has a basic resemblance to a Soviet Kalashnikov rifle, but mechanically, it was different in many ways. Czechoslovakia was possibly the only OTL Warsaw Pact country to have a fully indigenous assault rifle design, not based on license-built or imported copies of any of the Kalashnikov family types.

A few more pictures of the Czechoslovak bullpup, derived from the usual version Sa 58:
Sa 58 bullpup (1), Sa 58 bullpup (2)

See also the Chinese QBZ-95 for a similar, but more modern configuration.

 

[Boristus]

(A remake of a post I made almost exactly two years ago!)

American Dynamics G3 Minuteman

The Minuteman is a fifth-generation Knightmare Frame in service with the United States Army. Unlike its predecessor the G2 Patriot (which was a customized licensed production run of the Kingdom of Britannia's RPI-11 Glasgow employed during the Lusitanian invasion of Mexico), the Minuteman is a wholly-American machine used as the United State's first line of defense against the aggression of the Holy Lusitanian Empire.

 

[merkmuds]

Project Orion nuclear pulse propulsion battleship. More info can be found here : http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/realdesigns2.php#id--Project_Orion--Orion_Battleship

It would have carried 200 twenty-megaton city-killer warheads, 5-inch Naval cannon turrets, several hundred Casaba Howitzer weapon, and six hypersonic landing boats.

 

[Hammerbolt]

It would have carried 500 twenty-megaton city-killer warheads, 5-inch Naval cannon turrets,
View attachment 341480

I'd love to know how they'd deal with the efects of the recoil in 0-g...

 

[merkmuds]

I'd love to know how they'd deal with the efects of the recoil in 0-g...

It was propelled using nuclear pulse propulsion, which would have negated recoil from the cannons. If you want details, this link should explain : http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/enginelist.php#id--Pulse--Orion

 

[Hammerbolt]

It was propelled using nuclear pulse propulsion, which would have negated recoil from the cannons. If you want details, this link should explain : http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/enginelist.php#id--Pulse--Orion

I know about the propulsion method, but that afects movement/recoil along the longitudinal axis of the ship, and in a steady stream; while the 5" guns would be firing along every axis, at multiple and irregular intervals, so creating recoil in directions other than the ship's...

 

[Petike]

An update to my previous artwork of various trick arrows used in my RPG fantasy setting.

I wasn't happy with some of the details (the positioning of the nocks, the look of some of the fletching, etc.) in the initial version of the image, so I've decided to edit said details. As you can see, I've also created two different variations on the look of the crossbow bolt fletching. This is intentional, to mirror the variations that existed in bolt fletching in real world history. I was contemplating doing something similar with the arrow fletching too, but I eventually opted to keep it as is, and refresh it only a little. I consider this a fairly definitive version.

----

Complete overview of what is what:
Broadhead - normally used mainly as a hunting arrowhead; good against soft tissues and therefore unarmoured or lightly armoured opponents
Bodkin - an arrowhead that's mostly seen military use; fairly effective at penetrating thicker armours, including mail, but incapable of beating plate
Flathead/Blunthead - cheapo arrowhead that's incapable of sticking into targets; can be used to hit switches, daze enemies on impact, drop objects (including small light sources like candles) or deliver scraps of paper with messages (concealed in a hollow head)
Ruckus - decoy clockwork arrowhead with manual wind-up mechanism, activated on impact by the button at the front; the trigger sets off wind-up clockwork rattles, bells and whistles built into the arrowhead
Knockout - incapacitating clockwork arrowhead (as the name implies); after the button sets off the trigger, knockout gas, or sleeping gas, etc., is pushed out of the gas cylinder inside through small openings
Dousing - dousing as in "putting out an open fire"; glass arrowheads of different sizes, filled with water or special extinguishing liquid, have multiple possible uses (main one being enhancing shadows at night)
Ignition - mechanical or alchemical arrowhead with an explosive and/or igniting effect; the mechanical variant has a striking trigger which ignites the gunpowder with a spark, the alchemical variant has a simpler trigger which intentionally destabilises the alchemical mixture stored inside

----

The second sheet will mostly show similarly specialised darts for dart pistols, and various bolts and missiles used as grappling hooks.

I'll note that this is all heavily inspired by the Thief series and other prominent uses of the concept of the "trick arrow". That said, I wanted to make these arrowheads as plausible as I could, deemphasizing the need for magic to make them work. Therefore, they weigh heavily on the tech side in terms of design (while in Thief, one of the inspirations, it was always more 50:50). As the characters who use these arrows and bolts wouldn't have a steady access to magic, I thought it made more sense if the arrowheads were mostly grounded in reality, built only with technologies available in an early modern-esque society with emerging industrial era technology.

 

[Thomas27]

From my Facebook art page.

A few weeks ago I was talking about a distant artbook project called "alternate history design".
The title is not definitive, but here is a dual-page prototype to give you an idea of what it might look like. The text will be in English, but will remain at an accessible level.
It will probably be a self-funded project with crowdfunding, unless a publisher manifests is interested by the project.

Thomas

Click to see the picture.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

A follow up to my upside down rifle concept. While looking around for some other unusual gun designs for inspiration, I found this, the 1950s Soviet MC-3:

Article here:
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/2/22/the-first-upside-down-gun/

Obviously this is a competitive shooting gun and not a rifle but apparently the idea of having the barrel below the trigger does have some potential, if only in terms of smaller recoil.

Mind you, This makes me think that if I stick with the upside-down rifle, I will need to lower the trigger & grip of my Kolyakov-47 a fair bit even taking proportions into account. It further occurs to me that one way of achieving this would be for the trigger to be pressed using the front hand (when gripping the rifle) with the back one simply acting as balance (think of when you use a garden hose).

Also, Petike's comments about a rifle being easy to maintain would mean trying to give the impression that it is composed of a small number of parts with some pieces being large moulded ones.

will post version 2.0 when I can

 

[Marc Pasquin]

ok, Kolyakov-47 2.0

 

[cortz#9]

ok, Kolyakov-47 2.0

View attachment 344801

Interesting, not the sleekest looking gun but definitely unique.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

Interesting, not the sleekest looking gun but definitely unique.

thanks. I'll probably try to refine it but getting a unique silhouette is pretty much the goal. Ultimately I'd like both sides of the Lukewarm Peace being armed with their own iconic rifle or derivative of same that are on par with OTL's AK-47 & M-16.

 

[cortz#9]

thanks. I'll probably try to refine it but getting a unique silhouette is pretty much the goal. Ultimately I'd like both sides of the Lukewarm Peace being armed with their own iconic rifle or derivative of same that are on par with OTL's AK-47 & M-16.

Have you considered going with an all metal and plastic stock? Wood is cool but I think going with a non-wood gun would make it look more modern, futuristic even.

Might I suggest a folding pistol grip up front and a sliding folding stock like the one on the H&K MP-5 submachine gun?

 

[Marc Pasquin]

Have you considered going with an all metal and plastic stock? Wood is cool but I think going with a non-wood gun would make it look more modern, futuristic even.

Might I suggest a folding pistol grip up front and a sliding folding stock like the one on the H&K MP-5 submachine gun?

It's not supposed to look futuristic or even modern. The Lukewarm Peace is a "politic swap" version of the cold war so I'm trying to come up with something which, at least originally, wouldn't look out of place next to the AK-47.

The changes I'm going for are those which would visually emphasize the "flipped around" nature of that timeline such as barrel below trigger or bullpup (or both).

 

[cortz#9]

It's not supposed to look futuristic or even modern. The Lukewarm Peace is a "politic swap" version of the cold war so I'm trying to come up with something which, at least originally, wouldn't look out of place next to the AK-47.

The changes I'm going for are those which would visually emphasize the "flipped around" nature of that timeline such as barrel below trigger or bullpup (or both).

Ah I see.
Will you be doing any other alt-weapon designs?

 

[Marc Pasquin]

Ah I see.
Will you be doing any other alt-weapon designs?

At the very least there will be an alt-m16 with a barrel-under-trigger design

 

[cortz#9]

At the very least there will be an alt-m16 with a barrel-under-trigger design

Cool, can't wait to see it.
BTW I have a couple of alternate gun designs of my own on page 273, I'd like to hear what you think of them.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

Cool, can't wait to see it.
BTW I have a couple of alternate gun designs of my own on page 273, I'd like to hear what you think of them.

I second the "star wars" prop comment although I think its just because of the scope. To me, this only make sense on a sniper rifle while the overall look seems more like a "spray and pray" weapon.

That being said, if this is the generic weapon used by the army, maybe without a scope it could be the basic grunt rifle and with the scope and a slightly more ergonomic grip and butt being the sniper version ? A customizable weapon with 1-3-auto shots options and accessories would make sense at least from an economical point of view.

 

[cortz#9]

I second the "star wars" prop comment although I think its just because of the scope. To me, this only make sense on a sniper rifle while the overall look seems more like a "spray and pray" weapon.

That being said, if this is the generic weapon used by the army, maybe without a scope it could be the basic grunt rifle and with the scope and a slightly more ergonomic grip and butt being the sniper version ? A customizable weapon with 1-3-auto shots options and accessories would make sense at least from an economical point of view.

The rifle was in part inspired by the Steyr Aug bullpup rifle which comes with a scope, thinking about it now though, I should have given it a high eye relief scope.
I think that might have made more sense since the Germans in WWII did plan to issue one rifle with a High eye relief scope to one soldier in every squad but never could implement the idea due to the worsening war situation they got themselves into.

I might go back and do a new version with the high eye relief scope and one without.