Let's say Chinese paper armor becomes commonplace some time in the 1400's. Most nations fielding guns also field the armor and spend the years since working to perfect the armor with tech appropriate to each era. Does this butterfly away the existence of intermediate rounds in the 1900's? Would a mid to late 1900's where everyone has effective body armor cause automatic rifles and machine guns to skew towards high energy rounds perhaps like the M14's cartridges? Would intermediate rounds still dominate the battlefield?
Alternate Weapon Development
- Thread starter Matti23
- Start date
Sorry, can you link an article about that paper Armour? I have absolutely no idea about it and how effective it was. Was it similar to creek linothorax? Thank you.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Probably yes they would still appear. Intermediate cartridges are still good at penetrating armor, 5.56 NATO M855 will penetrate 3mm of steel at 600 meters and 12mm at 100 meters, practical armor won't stop that given the intermediate cartridge comes with expected combat ranges of under 300 meters. Be more emphasis on AP performance compared to fragmentation
It's submachine guns that may not appear, body armor is very effective against pistol rounds
It's submachine guns that may not appear, body armor is very effective against pistol rounds
@Starslayer_D a link to the effectiveness of Chinese paper armor. That test deflected early flintlock pistol fire but failed against a modern style revolver. As for the armor not functioning well when getting wet criticism, the real armor was likely a composite of several fabrics and barkcloth, not paper.
The key to this might be the 1400's bit. Can a M16 with armor penetrating rounds pierce Chinese paper armor? Yes. But the armor itself will be going against the more primitive firearms of the day. The real effect is going to be the shadow it casts into the future of the timeline.
Once the armor successfully stops early musket balls the paradigm of armor will change. Armor materials development would be boosted now that they can use this as a starting point. Silk and some fabrics did exist OTL but silk was quite expensive. A relatively cheap and effective material is going to guide and result in much more research interest. Those 1900's guns aren't going to be pitted against ancient Chinese paper armor. After a few centuries of this boosted development they might be facing off against something more akin to an early form of Dragon Skin. Dragon skin is incredibly tough and has been reported to survive multiple impacts from an AK-47.
The paper armor has segments that are fabricated and joined together into a large suit which could lead to Dragon Skin style scales. The ceramic part might be a more iffy and i'd have to ask the community about whether we could see materials science boosted so much as to see it in WW1 or 2?
If the ceramic isn't available we could see intermediate cartridges but less like an 5.56x45mm NATO (M16) and more towards 7.62x39mm (AK-47). This wouldn't affect how long it takes to develop automatic rifles too much. If ceramic is available then you might see people lugging around M14s. Heard criticisms about using an M14 in full auto, wondering how much of the community thinks this would significantly hinder the adoption of automatic rifles? The M14 did get made after all and adopted as the main rifle for a short period.
The key to this might be the 1400's bit. Can a M16 with armor penetrating rounds pierce Chinese paper armor? Yes. But the armor itself will be going against the more primitive firearms of the day. The real effect is going to be the shadow it casts into the future of the timeline.
Once the armor successfully stops early musket balls the paradigm of armor will change. Armor materials development would be boosted now that they can use this as a starting point. Silk and some fabrics did exist OTL but silk was quite expensive. A relatively cheap and effective material is going to guide and result in much more research interest. Those 1900's guns aren't going to be pitted against ancient Chinese paper armor. After a few centuries of this boosted development they might be facing off against something more akin to an early form of Dragon Skin. Dragon skin is incredibly tough and has been reported to survive multiple impacts from an AK-47.
The paper armor has segments that are fabricated and joined together into a large suit which could lead to Dragon Skin style scales. The ceramic part might be a more iffy and i'd have to ask the community about whether we could see materials science boosted so much as to see it in WW1 or 2?
If the ceramic isn't available we could see intermediate cartridges but less like an 5.56x45mm NATO (M16) and more towards 7.62x39mm (AK-47). This wouldn't affect how long it takes to develop automatic rifles too much. If ceramic is available then you might see people lugging around M14s. Heard criticisms about using an M14 in full auto, wondering how much of the community thinks this would significantly hinder the adoption of automatic rifles? The M14 did get made after all and adopted as the main rifle for a short period.
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marathag
Banned
The M14 uses the 7.62 Nato cartridge, developed off the 300 Savage, with almost 30-06 power is a slightly shorter case. It's just above the Intermediate class in power
The 35 Remington cartridge in the Model 8 autoloader, was advertised as being able to penetrate 5/16" machine steel plate
Though it wasn't called so at the time, the Remington .25 .30 .32 and .35 were intermediate cartridges. Same case, necked out to different calibers
5.56mm .25 Rem 7.62Nato
That would stay.
What would go away, is a lot of dead men in WWI, as while WWI era armor was heavy, it was sometimes used
With your PoD, it's more common, so fewer men are killed/wounded by shell fragments, the biggest killer in WWI
While 13mm of paper performs as well as 1mm of (modern) steel against most weapons it was tested as providing little protection against blunt trauma or 'modern' (e.g. nineteenth century) firearms. Furthermore such armour would not stand up well to sustained abuse or poor weather conditions (even with shellac or resin).
Such armour wouldn't effect the development of intermediate rifle cartridges as it was ineffective against even round-nosed lead bullets from handguns.
Does not sound plausible. Pistol fire is one thing but the main weapon in the coming centuries is the musket which is an entirely different beast. The armor will be seen as more of a hindrance and extra weight for large marching armies (especially as they swell into 100000 strong ones in the late 1700s) not to mention the extra cost of producing said armor outside a few special units like curaissers (and even they wavered pretty heavily on their use. European warfare will keep developing along the same lines as it did OTL with people figuring that the ideal infantryman carries as little as possible.
Armor in WWI was limited to small numbers of armor sets that did not work very well in their intended function save for the reintroduction of the helmet.
Armor in WWI was limited to small numbers of armor sets that did not work very well in their intended function save for the reintroduction of the helmet.
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At work.
Well..... as said 'if' said armor spreads across empires thoroughly and quickly......
Would not the first butterfly be the blunting of the Mongols in the East......
With them either not ruining many an Asian time line.
The next follow on is would they have enough steam to dent the Byzantines?
Secondly. How would such armor development effect such 'Catafracts' and other classes of 'Heavy infantry', since materially you are able to feild more. (Economics of horse raising, feeding, foraging and husbandry being a relatively accepted bottleneck and potential society driver still)
As for chemically driven weapons?
They'd still arrive (Though sooner or later depending on different societal collapsing, standing, surviving or falling) since said guns were a 'Cheaper', more mass producable weapon that really surplanted bows/X-bows. Not knights.
I do agree (To keep the thread in the 'Present day' section) that potentially things like Napoleonic war far might change some.
It's interesting to think how such an armor would change the "Rock, paper, scissors. " that was the thing of time petiods battle feild of "Infatry square, Cavalry, Cannon."
A very interesting thread. Much thanks to the original poster.
Well..... as said 'if' said armor spreads across empires thoroughly and quickly......
Would not the first butterfly be the blunting of the Mongols in the East......
With them either not ruining many an Asian time line.
The next follow on is would they have enough steam to dent the Byzantines?
Secondly. How would such armor development effect such 'Catafracts' and other classes of 'Heavy infantry', since materially you are able to feild more. (Economics of horse raising, feeding, foraging and husbandry being a relatively accepted bottleneck and potential society driver still)
As for chemically driven weapons?
They'd still arrive (Though sooner or later depending on different societal collapsing, standing, surviving or falling) since said guns were a 'Cheaper', more mass producable weapon that really surplanted bows/X-bows. Not knights.
I do agree (To keep the thread in the 'Present day' section) that potentially things like Napoleonic war far might change some.
It's interesting to think how such an armor would change the "Rock, paper, scissors. " that was the thing of time petiods battle feild of "Infatry square, Cavalry, Cannon."
A very interesting thread. Much thanks to the original poster.
marathag
Banned
OP did state 'also field the armor and spend the years since working to perfect the armor with tech appropriate to each era.' so for WWI,that's Manganese Steel, and Silk and Rayon in urea-formaldehyde or sewn.
Rayon is a bit weaker than Nylon, around 20%, and close to silk, depending on the method of manufacture
All these were present before WWI.
Had Gavrilo Princip aimed two inches lower, Franz Ferdinand would have lived, the fatal bullet in the silk bulletproof liner he was wearing.
The silk armor OTL was made for the Rich and Royal, after the wave of assassinations of the 1890s.
So what would these early vest be like in WWI
Not too different from the first vests used in Korea, that used Nylon.
In the summer of 1952, the Far East Command requested immediate supply of the latest Army type vest for issue to combat troops. Although field testing of this model had been completed, the vest had never been mass-produced. For this reason, vest of this type could not be furnished immediately and the Far East Command indicated that, although the Army armored vest was preferred, the Marine Corps’ Doron vest was acceptable to fill immediate requirements. Therefore, 31,017 of the M-1951 Marine Corps vests were procured and shipped to the Far East Command. Five thousand Army-type vests also were ordered at this time for shipment to the Far East Command.
Delivery to the Far East Command of an additional 20,000 of the Army vests was scheduled for the period of January through May, 1953. Cost of these 20,000 of the Army vests, including price of materials furnished the contractor by the Quartermaster Corps, was $39.04 each.
The Army armored vest, now called the M-1952, provided to troops in Korea, weighed approximately 8 pounds, and was made of 12 layers of flexible, spot-laminated Nylon-duck, enclosed in a heat-sealed water-repellent vinyl envelope. The T-52-2 Model (the 5,000 shipped to Korea late in 1952) was designed to be worn as an outside garment with an outer cover of 6 ounce, nylon fabric. It had adjustable side straps to assure a snug fit.
The M-1952A or T-52-3 Model (the 20,000 ordered for shipment to Korea early in 1953, now called M-1952A) was designed to be worn over the shirt but under a field jacket and is covered with light-weight 6 ounce nylon. Elastic side-laces insured a snug fit. Both models were fastened in the front with a zipper, plus a fly closure utilizing snaps. Both models were made in three sizes—small, medium, and large. The Army vest (T-52-3) had an area of approximately six square feet; the earlier model (T-52-2), 5.5 square feet.
Reports received by the Office of the Surgeon General of the Army on the combat testing of the new Army nylon vest showed that the armor deflected approximately 65 per cent of all types of missiles, 75 per cent of all fragments, and 25 per cent of all small-arms fire. The reports also stated that the armor reduced torso wounds by 60 to 70 per cent, while those inflicted in spite of the armor’s protection were reduced in severity by 25 to 35 per cent.
Now these weren't bulletproof, but were lightweight vs the current US model, the Improved Outer Tactical Vest, around 30 pounds with the heavy plate inserts that provides a lot better protection
Downsides?
expense, and they do trap heat, the biggest initial complaint in Korea in the summer.
But as hot as Korea is, Iraq is even worse. So troops can do it.
back to WWI, many of the same issues, with the addition that rayon or silk vests will degrade if not dried out properly
At work.
So.... WW I is still a living hell, just not quite as instantly lethal living hell?
I try to post such as 'Lightly' as possible while still giving respect to the many thousands of fallen.
Still.... should such armor be available even earlier (Napoleonic to keep ourselves 'Modern') it would not really do anything to change the 'Style' except, once again, making surviving.such evens a little more likely. Since indirect/incidental injury is reduced.
Much cheers to all
So.... WW I is still a living hell, just not quite as instantly lethal living hell?
I try to post such as 'Lightly' as possible while still giving respect to the many thousands of fallen.
Still.... should such armor be available even earlier (Napoleonic to keep ourselves 'Modern') it would not really do anything to change the 'Style' except, once again, making surviving.such evens a little more likely. Since indirect/incidental injury is reduced.
Much cheers to all
Thanks for the help. Just got back from work.
@Starslayer_D, I think that Chinese paper armor could stop flintlock and musket weaponry. Couldn't stop modern revolver ammunition though. Denv's links are pretty helpful. It is kind of like Creek Linothorax in that it was many layers of different materials in order to provide better protection.
@Derwit, interesting idea. Might be an approach to a timeline. What do you think would have become of designs such as the M1918 BAR and the M14? The M14 seems to have come into use as a main battle rifle before fully automatic weapons became commonplace as a main infantry rifle.
@RamscoopRaider @marathag @Catsmate , good to know. Pretty good range of rounds possible. So the Chinese Paper Armor itself probably won't be appearing in WW2. How much more advanced would armor tech be accelerated (thus advancing what might become appropriate for each era?). Might we see modern ballistic vests appearing in WW2 or WW1 or perhaps would the affect be not so great? The Korean Vest sounds like a interesting approach if not. How much of an advantage would an army have in urban combat if one side had these and the other did not?
@Some Bloke , I see what you did there
@Orcbuster interesting approach. If it is too expensive to make a full suit, perhaps just plates protecting vital areas such as a small one on the chest?
@Peebothuhlu the POD is the Mongols failing to conquer Jin and having a vastly weaker invasion of Europe. Kievan Rus' reunifies and Byzantine Empire survives. No Ottoman Empire emerges.
Interesting question about heavy infantry. The paper armor is very effective against arrows so this could potentially cause some headaches for those central Asian raiders. If bows are less effective they'll now need to rely less on them. Swords are reported to get stuck in this armor which could be lethal for a cavalryman in combat. Such amour could be a valuable asset for a Byzantine campaign in Anatolia. Going to have to ask the community for their opinion though. In what way might the style of warfare change later on?
Thanks for contributing everybody
@Starslayer_D, I think that Chinese paper armor could stop flintlock and musket weaponry. Couldn't stop modern revolver ammunition though. Denv's links are pretty helpful. It is kind of like Creek Linothorax in that it was many layers of different materials in order to provide better protection.
@Derwit, interesting idea. Might be an approach to a timeline. What do you think would have become of designs such as the M1918 BAR and the M14? The M14 seems to have come into use as a main battle rifle before fully automatic weapons became commonplace as a main infantry rifle.
@RamscoopRaider @marathag @Catsmate , good to know. Pretty good range of rounds possible. So the Chinese Paper Armor itself probably won't be appearing in WW2. How much more advanced would armor tech be accelerated (thus advancing what might become appropriate for each era?). Might we see modern ballistic vests appearing in WW2 or WW1 or perhaps would the affect be not so great? The Korean Vest sounds like a interesting approach if not. How much of an advantage would an army have in urban combat if one side had these and the other did not?
@Some Bloke , I see what you did there
@Orcbuster interesting approach. If it is too expensive to make a full suit, perhaps just plates protecting vital areas such as a small one on the chest?
@Peebothuhlu the POD is the Mongols failing to conquer Jin and having a vastly weaker invasion of Europe. Kievan Rus' reunifies and Byzantine Empire survives. No Ottoman Empire emerges.
Interesting question about heavy infantry. The paper armor is very effective against arrows so this could potentially cause some headaches for those central Asian raiders. If bows are less effective they'll now need to rely less on them. Swords are reported to get stuck in this armor which could be lethal for a cavalryman in combat. Such amour could be a valuable asset for a Byzantine campaign in Anatolia. Going to have to ask the community for their opinion though. In what way might the style of warfare change later on?
Thanks for contributing everybody
A typical musket would have muzzle energy 3-4 times that of a 45 revolver cartridge. It’s the firearm that made body armor obsolete.
TDM
Kicked
I don't think it would make a huge difference. To stop more modern rounds paper armour would have to be very thick which means it would be very heavy. Until you get to modern materials steel is by protection the lightest armour materiel. Some one earlier mentioned it took 13mm of layered paper to give the same protection as 1mm of steel (depending on the steel). 13mm of paper armour will weigh more than 1mm of steel.
Of course 1mm of steel doesn't stop much in terms of bullets. So you probably looking at much thicker paper to give worthwhile protection, which in turn means the limitations of it kick in and it becomes less useful in reality
Of course 1mm of steel doesn't stop much in terms of bullets. So you probably looking at much thicker paper to give worthwhile protection, which in turn means the limitations of it kick in and it becomes less useful in reality
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TDM
Kicked
Yep the earlier link talked about C18th flintlock pistols. It would be nice to know what they used (1mm of steel wouldn't have stopped many of them), but thicker armour would stop pistols in reality. Full length muskets and such we're a different matter. Some breastplates got up to 8mm thick in places in order to protect against more powerful rounds. Of course such plate was heavy and that brought it's own limitations, but the equivalent protection in paper would be even heavier, as well as approx 10cm thick!
TDM
Kicked
OP did state 'also field the armor and spend the years since working to perfect the armor with tech appropriate to each era.' so for WWI,that's Manganese Steel, and Silk and Rayon in urea-formaldehyde or sewn.
Rayon is a bit weaker than Nylon, around 20%, and close to silk, depending on the method of manufacture
All these were present before WWI.
Had Gavrilo Princip aimed two inches lower, Franz Ferdinand would have lived, the fatal bullet in the silk bulletproof liner he was wearing.
The silk armor OTL was made for the Rich and Royal, after the wave of assassinations of the 1890s.
So what would these early vest be like in WWI
Not too different from the first vests used in Korea, that used Nylon.
In the summer of 1952, the Far East Command requested immediate supply of the latest Army type vest for issue to combat troops. Although field testing of this model had been completed, the vest had never been mass-produced. For this reason, vest of this type could not be furnished immediately and the Far East Command indicated that, although the Army armored vest was preferred, the Marine Corps’ Doron vest was acceptable to fill immediate requirements. Therefore, 31,017 of the M-1951 Marine Corps vests were procured and shipped to the Far East Command. Five thousand Army-type vests also were ordered at this time for shipment to the Far East Command.
Delivery to the Far East Command of an additional 20,000 of the Army vests was scheduled for the period of January through May, 1953. Cost of these 20,000 of the Army vests, including price of materials furnished the contractor by the Quartermaster Corps, was $39.04 each.
The Army armored vest, now called the M-1952, provided to troops in Korea, weighed approximately 8 pounds, and was made of 12 layers of flexible, spot-laminated Nylon-duck, enclosed in a heat-sealed water-repellent vinyl envelope. The T-52-2 Model (the 5,000 shipped to Korea late in 1952) was designed to be worn as an outside garment with an outer cover of 6 ounce, nylon fabric. It had adjustable side straps to assure a snug fit.
The M-1952A or T-52-3 Model (the 20,000 ordered for shipment to Korea early in 1953, now called M-1952A) was designed to be worn over the shirt but under a field jacket and is covered with light-weight 6 ounce nylon. Elastic side-laces insured a snug fit. Both models were fastened in the front with a zipper, plus a fly closure utilizing snaps. Both models were made in three sizes—small, medium, and large. The Army vest (T-52-3) had an area of approximately six square feet; the earlier model (T-52-2), 5.5 square feet.
Reports received by the Office of the Surgeon General of the Army on the combat testing of the new Army nylon vest showed that the armor deflected approximately 65 per cent of all types of missiles, 75 per cent of all fragments, and 25 per cent of all small-arms fire. The reports also stated that the armor reduced torso wounds by 60 to 70 per cent, while those inflicted in spite of the armor’s protection were reduced in severity by 25 to 35 per cent.
Now these weren't bulletproof, but were lightweight vs the current US model, the Improved Outer Tactical Vest, around 30 pounds with the heavy plate inserts that provides a lot better protection
Downsides?
expense, and they do trap heat, the biggest initial complaint in Korea in the summer.
But as hot as Korea is, Iraq is even worse. So troops can do it.
back to WWI, many of the same issues, with the addition that rayon or silk vests will degrade if not dried out properly
Yep. The thing is as you show such layered armour was already an ongoing technology. It's just the inherent issues of not being able to provide enough protection and be cheap or light enough for general use is hard to dodge. The OTV at 30lbs is heavier than a lot of torso protection through history, and soldiers loadouts have been getting heavier not lighter down the years. (of course in theory they are less relient on hoofing it...in theory )
That royal and royal silk vest might have stopped a browning 1910, but it's not going to be much good for general issue on the front lines.
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Two questions before we get onto effectiveness vs intermediate rounds.
Does it stop cannonballs. Inc for the avoidance of doubt case, spherical case and grapeshot.
How hndy is it when you get hit on the head by a mace, or club or any other blunt force weapon.
Does it stop cannonballs. Inc for the avoidance of doubt case, spherical case and grapeshot.
How hndy is it when you get hit on the head by a mace, or club or any other blunt force weapon.
WW1 Brewster Body armour could stop a .303 but the kit weighted 40lbs.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_Body_Shield
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_Body_Shield
marathag
Banned
Most wounds in WWI wasn't from high velocity bullets, but fragments going under 1000fps
Artillery 73%
Machine gun 12%
Grenade, mortar, bomb: 8%
Rifle bullets 5%
Other 2%
Anything that reduces fragments going into the torso will save a lot of lives. World War I hospital reports also show about 20 percent of wounds were to the head and throat: helmets, when introduced, were said to have saved yens of thousands of lives by themselves, and the French Adrian and British Brodie were not good designs, but better that a cloth cap they had before
Not far off from what current US Army body armor can weigh with all the plates in place.