Alternate warships of nations

[Count of Crisco]

The Soviet submarine landing craft have gotten me thinking about horrible but possible warship ideas, here are some I have from different era's.

Age of sail
An enlarged 32 gun frigate with an all 32 pounder armament, I would call it a 32 double. Thing would need to be incredibly strong built and cost almost as much as a third rate, but as a trade off could probably fight any two other frigates of the period with a decent change of success.

Ironclad era
Basically any crazy idea I have had has some real world example, but a giant floating slab of armor with a massive ram bow is always fun.

Steel battleship era
Again lots of absurd designs already built but I like the Duilio class of the Regia Marina.

Predreadnought era
Massive slab of armor with stupid number of 6in secondaries and high speed?

Dreadnought era
Thickly armored high speed with with only light guns on deck but solid line of torpedo tubes running most of the length of the hull. Charge the enemy battleline shrugging off any fire coming your way, turn, and unleash hell.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Predreadnought era
Massive slab of armor with stupid number of 6in secondaries and high speed?

Dreadnought era
Thickly armored high speed with with only light guns on deck but solid line of torpedo tubes running most of the length of the hull. Charge the enemy battleline shrugging off any fire coming your way, turn, and unleash hell.

Both of these I'd designate "torpedo battlecruisers" but what sort of country would order these? A country with room to spare in their naval budget like Britain (who built things like that one submarine with the battlecruiser gun)? A country without much budget like a poorer country or non-traditional naval power?

 

[Count of Crisco]

Both of these I'd designate "torpedo battlecruisers" but what sort of country would order these? A country with room to spare in their naval budget like Britain (who built things like that one submarine with the battlecruiser gun)? A country without much budget like a poorer country or non-traditional naval power?

As with most weird and wonderful things in the period I am going to suggest France, though the USN could be mighty odd when it wanted too as well.

 

[Lascaris]

The Soviet submarine landing craft have gotten me thinking about horrible but possible warship ideas, here are some I have from different era's.

Age of sail
An enlarged 32 gun frigate with an all 32 pounder armament, I would call it a 32 double. Thing would need to be incredibly strong built and cost almost as much as a third rate, but as a trade off could probably fight any two other frigates of the period with a decent change of success.

That's exactly what the Americans were building for themselves and export? Or for that matter what British razees were? Frex Hellas build for the Greek navy was armed with 32x32pdr guns and 32x42 pdr carronades on 1728t burden.

 

[Gokbay]

Pretty sure USN had some torpedo battleship concepts

 

[naraic]

Both of these I'd designate "torpedo battlecruisers" but what sort of country would order these? A country with room to spare in their naval budget like Britain (who built things like that one submarine with the battlecruiser gun)? A country without much budget like a poorer country or non-traditional naval power?

I could see Britain ordering one as an experiment.

I could also see (in a world without a Russian japanese war) some country missing the memo on fire control improvements and deciding that the power of a torpedo would make sense as a main weapon.

 

[Merrick]

The Soviet submarine landing craft have gotten me thinking about horrible but possible warship ideas, here are some I have from different era's.

Age of sail
An enlarged 32 gun frigate with an all 32 pounder armament, I would call it a 32 double. Thing would need to be incredibly strong built and cost almost as much as a third rate, but as a trade off could probably fight any two other frigates of the period with a decent change of success.

My first thought was "Isn't that just USS Constitution?" But she had a mix of 24pdrs and carronades rather than going all-in on the 32pdrs.
The British did experiment with re-arming a 4th-rate with 100% carronades (HMS Glatton) - no long-range fire and no chase fire either (the carronades were too big for the gunports) but it'll wreck a 74 if you can sucker one into range. Imagine if it had been judged a success and they'd re-armed some 3rd-rates with 70-80 x 68pdr!

Ironclad era
Basically any crazy idea I have had has some real world example, but a giant floating slab of armor with a massive ram bow is always fun.

I think in the American Civil War the Union built some riverine rams where the ram was the only weapon, apart from the crew's personal small arms. Then there's the "hellish machine" CSS Manassas. I don't think anyone built an seagoing ironclad completely without guns, but you could go with a more extreme version of the British Hotspur or the Italian Affondatore, maybe with a single fixed gun firing over the ram.

Steel battleship era
Again lots of absurd designs already built but I like the Duilio class of the Regia Marina.

The "giant gun" era is fun. You can't go wrong with the British Inflexible - 16" turreted muzzle-loaders, not to mention sails and torpedo tubes on the same ship. Or going to the opposite extreme, the Italian Italia/Lepanto. I don't think anyone built a ship with guns so giant that they only mounted a single turret, but we can dream.

Predreadnought era
Massive slab of armor with stupid number of 6in secondaries and high speed?

The Germans built the Kaiser Friedrich III-class with a "main" armament of 4x 24cm and a "secondary" armament of 18(!)x 15cm. The trouble is that "massive slab of armour" and "high speed" tend to work against each other.

Dreadnought era
Thickly armored high speed with with only light guns on deck but solid line of torpedo tubes running most of the length of the hull. Charge the enemy battleline shrugging off any fire coming your way, turn, and unleash hell.

I can see the Japanese experimenting with something like this in the 1930s - particularly if they think they can sneak it past the Washington Treaty.

 

[Lascaris]

My first thought was "Isn't that just USS Constitution?" But she had a mix of 24pdrs and carronades rather than going all-in on the 32pdrs.
The British did experiment with re-arming a 4th-rate with 100% carronades (HMS Glatton) - no long-range fire and no chase fire either (the carronades were too big for the gunports) but it'll wreck a 74 if you can sucker one into range. Imagine if it had been judged a success and they'd re-armed some 3rd-rates with 70-80 x 68pdr!

No one had only guns, top deck was usually reserved for carronades. But on the 24pdrs on the lower deck... each of these weighted 50cwt. Well funny thing... a 32pdr also weighted 50cwt. Which is why the USN went on its ships of the line with uniform 32pdr gun battery and the British and French start copying this on their later ships. And how the USN heavy frigates from the 1820s onwards also had 32pdrs.

 

[Count of Crisco]

Hey, @Lascaris over on the sb forums there has been a discussion about the Greek Bretagne class dreadnought revolving around why the Hellenic navy went with a ship a generation behind the times. The idea that they bought the ship as she was a tested and proven design that could be built quickly came up, then I wondered why they went with the Salamis at the same time if they had made the decision to buy a tried and true design.

Any input on this?

 

[naraic]

Hey, @Lascaris over on the sb forums there has been a discussion about the Greek Bretagne class dreadnought revolving around why the Hellenic navy went with a ship a generation behind the times. The idea that they bought the ship as she was a tested and proven design that could be built quickly came up, then I wondered why they went with the Salamis at the same time if they had made the decision to buy a tried and true design.

Any input on this?

My understanding is that the Greeks went for Salamis quiet a while before they started looking at the Breatages. The tender process started march 1912 and the ship wasnt laid down for 15 months more. Even once laid down the greeks werent happy with the speed of construction. AG Vulcan was blaming Bethleham for delays in construction. So the multinational aspect of Salamis was considered a bad thing. The Germans and Americans were blamed for the Salamis.

The British were being seen as pro Ottoman as they were building two battleships for the Ottomans.

That left the French as a major battleship builder available. I believe they promised speed (I wouldn't really believe that) with a suggestion that teams who had just finished doing something for the French ships could do another of whatever for the follow up greek ships.

 

[Lascaris]

Hey, @Lascaris over on the sb forums there has been a discussion about the Greek Bretagne class dreadnought revolving around why the Hellenic navy went with a ship a generation behind the times. The idea that they bought the ship as she was a tested and proven design that could be built quickly came up, then I wondered why they went with the Salamis at the same time if they had made the decision to buy a tried and true design.

Any input on this?

Sure. Diplomacy trumps technical merits. France was giving a 500 million francs loan to Greece. It was pressing Greece to get a sizeable portion of Greek naval orders in exchange and delaying the loan to put pressure on the Greeks. From Fotakis Greek Naval Strategy and policy 1910-19. It's not accidental that right after this, the Greeks went over to Britain for 15in fast battleship designs and as soon as the war begun start moving to cancel the French order... while continuing negotiating with Britain for Queen Elizabeth clones.

And further. Here Fotakis is a bit outdated in the sense that Friedman in his more recent British battleship has British 15in battleship designs for Greece already discussed with the Coventry syndicate before June 1914.

 

[Dilvish]

My understanding is that the Greeks went for Salamis quiet a while before they started looking at the Breatages. The tender process started march 1912 and the ship wasnt laid down for 15 months more. Even once laid down the greeks werent happy with the speed of construction. AG Vulcan was blaming Bethleham for delays in construction. So the multinational aspect of Salamis was considered a bad thing. The Germans and Americans were blamed for the Salamis.

The British were being seen as pro Ottoman as they were building two battleships for the Ottomans.

That left the French as a major battleship builder available. I believe they promised speed (I wouldn't really believe that) with a suggestion that teams who had just finished doing something for the French ships could do another of whatever for the follow up greek ships.

One possible What If would be if Salamis was still a German and American ship, but built in the USA. I don't recall if Salamis had received her guns before the war started. Greece still getting one of its battleships can lead to small butterflies.

 

[Count of Crisco]

One possible What If would be if Salamis was still a German and American ship, but built in the USA. I don't recall if Salamis had received her guns before the war started. Greece still getting one of its battleships can lead to small butterflies.

I think the guns were never delivered and went to the UK for use by the RN in some monitors.

 

[naraic]

One possible What If would be if Salamis was still a German and American ship, but built in the USA. I don't recall if Salamis had received her guns before the war started. Greece still getting one of its battleships can lead to small butterflies.

Salamis didn't get its guns by the start of the war. Salamis's guns ended up going into British monitors.

 

[Lascaris]

One possible What If would be if Salamis was still a German and American ship, but built in the USA. I don't recall if Salamis had received her guns before the war started. Greece still getting one of its battleships can lead to small butterflies.

Politics... again. Salamis was ordered in Germany in 1912 and not Britain or the United States, to get the Germans who for good reason in retrospect were not at all happy with the new Greek government under Venizelos, stop messing up things. It worked admirably... for a time.

 

[Dilvish]

I now remember the tale of Salamis's American guns and the RN monitors.

Oh, my next ATL idea. The Germans come up with plans to convert the unfinished Salamis to some kind of aircraft carrier, seaplanes or wheeled birds. Much like HMS Eagle.

 

[AJE]

Age of sail
An enlarged 32 gun frigate with an all 32 pounder armament, I would call it a 32 double. Thing would need to be incredibly strong built and cost almost as much as a third rate, but as a trade off could probably fight any two other frigates of the period with a decent change of success.

That's pretty much what later frigates were, especially this one which standardized mostly on the 30-pound caliber to simplify ammunition handling, and had about as much firepower as a Napoleonic 74-gun third rate ship of the line. Britain followed the same pattern with 32-pounder frigates, and both were done after Paixhans proposed standardization as the logical conclusion of an existing trend. Since guns larger than 32- or 36-pounder tended to be unwieldy and were slowly superseded by 32-pounders in lower decks while smaller guns had steadily been replaced by larger ones, he noted the trend was for guns to increase or decrease towards 32- or 36-pound caliber. He actually recommended an 80-pounder shell-gun caliber (as light as 36-pounder solid shot cannon) be the standard, but alternately recommended a 36-pounder solid shot caliber, and 30- and 32-pounders were close to that.

I have considered making a chart similar to some on Wikipedia showing the dates when ships were built with certain calibers in certain areas (i.e. 24-pounder main deck frigates), from the mid-1600s to the end of the Age of Sail. This would show fairly well the trend in calibers on each deck of each rate of ship, but I haven't gotten around to putting all the data together for that, and I don't know how to make such a chart.

 

[Gokbay]

Something I had made two years ago but did not post (I had posted one of the battleships thought):

And yes, they are rather wacky.
View attachment ship classes comparison.png

Some notes on specific classes:
1. Wilhelm VII is the newest class of battleship
2. Kaiser is result of continuing Rhein class (or a successor pre-dreadnought class) being converted into dreadnoughts mid-construction.
3. Mantikor class is an armoured flight deck carrier.
4. Drache is conversion of a Schlange class BC, Greif is conversion of a Falke class CA.
5. Unicorn is pretty much based on OTL British HMS Unicorn.
6. Adler was the first carrier as Hosho/Langley style.
7. Heavy Cruisers, at least in operational context if not actual an actual design one are divided in two categories. Raiding Cruiser and Battle (Screen) Cruiser.
8. Ratte's were converted into torpedo cruisers, like OTL Kitakami, not originally built that way.
9. Ouroboros class are protected cruisers, rather than light cruisers. Despite the CL marking.

This is not meant to be Germany in an ATL, but rather a full on fictional universe with this specific country being a Germany expy with a more powerful navy.

 

[Rfl23]

Can i post a warship (a submarine that is) from a fictional country (not fantasy nation btw) or does it only apply for real world nation only

 

[Eternity]

Can i post a warship (a submarine that is) from a fictional country (not fantasy nation btw) or does it only apply for real world nation only

Hi Rfl23. This thread is for fictional warships only, so yes you can!