Yes , so maybe that size but better engines
ideally I want a fast and big warship that can in one trip lay 400 mines but if not better to have several dozen small fast ones
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Think this was missed, I could see the RN going two routes with this Resistance.
1) using her as the standard for the refits of Renown and Repulse, essentially their early refits are what this ship is.
2) using her as a running mate for Tiger on rotation with Hood. Basically letting the RN keep four fast capital ships in service at almost all times.
Extra RN fast capital ship, possibly butterflies an Outrageous. Her presence as another fast ship might allow Hood to get her rebuild prior to WWII as well.
Resistance being built means either goes to the scrapyard with the rest of the Cats or is converted to a training ship instead of Iron Duke.
Being relatively new ships none of the retained Battlecruisers are discarded due to the London Naval Treaty, instead one of the Revenge class is scrapped. By September 1939 at least 2 of the Battlecruisers have been rebuilt though whether the diplomats will allow Hood to be withdrawn for the years this would take is questionable. I would say doing so would be preferable to rebuilding one of the Queen Elizabeths. Money as ever would be the issue.
Being relatively new ships none of the retained Battlecruisers are discarded due to the London Naval Treaty, instead one of the Revenge class is scrapped. By September 1939 at least 2 of the Battlecruisers have been rebuilt though whether the diplomats will allow Hood to be withdrawn for the years this would take is questionable. I would say doing so would be preferable to rebuilding one of the Queen Elizabeths. Money as ever would be the issue.
If she is similar to Tiger but with 15” guns it seems more likely that she would take Tigers spot in the post war Fleet. The Admiralty are probably going to take the opportunity of removing a BC with 13.5” guns before scrapping a fairly new BB with 15” guns.
Sorry that's what I meant. Unfortunately my brain got ahead of my fingers and I skipped typing Tiger. I've corrected that now. When it comes to extra rebuilds in the 30's I suspect that the choice will be made to rebuild either Repulse or Resistance rather than Hood as Hood was always more of a symbol and the diplomats won't want to lose her for the three years a rebuild would take. I stand by what I said though, if it came to a choice between rebuilding Hood or a QE I'd pick Hood.
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Honestly if the RN has 14 15" gun ships they'll likely push hard for them and the USN to have 16 ships in either the LNT or at the WNT itseld
deutsche/german superraider for WWI as a "point of authority" for Etapendienst
Sorry for very old PS making - it will be renown soon
It was Salamis at start but it was very long time ago. And we took the
From the forward
group of guns' turrets, we leave Anton on the barbette from Bruno, 'cause we are building up another deck to create a new higher forecastle - by 2..2.4 meters.
Conning tower, etc. are transferred to the former place of the 2nd turret, and we give the freed up space for additional boilers and turbines. "There is an opinion" (as you understand - not without the help of SpringSharp) that a speed of about 28 knots in calm water can be considered normal for such a ship, therefore, it is necessary to squeeze out 55..60 thousand hp on 4 shafts (turbines are direct-acting) and lengthen the hull.
Thoughts German look are:
Not a long-ass with increased vibrations, friction resistance, protrusions, and even the placement of elongated shafts, and not afat-long-bellied body-positive one, which is not to cut out appendicitis at all, but to embed a cylindrical insert into the finished armored hull in the most hemorrhoidal way - an extensive insert is difficult to manufacture, even more difficult to build and to dock (MOAR new thick armour, needs two joints-not one, and everything is making afloat in a filled dock, and then ought to be drained and re-riveted), needs full armor and is not so good at accommodating all the same variable cargo. Yes, the places are great, yes, you can put in a lot more boilers and fuel oil with coal - but large super-crew of prize teams in tropics over the boiler room? No way. And where can we get a place for the mooring mast of the reconnaissance or mail zeppelin from motherland?
The nose is relatively easy to manufacture, greatly reduces the Froude number and still allows you to accommodate coal, fuel oil and living quarters for prize teams, for which we generally rebuild the tip.
Generally writing it ought to be a new nose being built from Anton turret (more precisely, from the bow traverse) onto the bow end, lengthening it by 45 meters (you can dock with the finished hull, for example, in the neighboring civil shipyard dock Vulkan-Stettin - where superliners were built before the WW1), so that, together with a forecastle, they could gain normal seaworthiness and at the same time increase the number of coal pits and oil tanks. A light (10 cm) belt extends onto the new giga-nose. The cruising range is about 10,000 miles at a speed of 12 knots. In the absence of American 14" guns, all turrets are equipped with a choice of 2x30.5 cm or even 3x28 cm (the latter, I'm afraid, is unlikely). In upper & lower casemats mounts instead of a dozen 6" and a dozen 7.5 cm, there are a dozen and a half 10.5 cm light cruisers' guns have been installed. May be some torpedoes underwater.
Conning tower, etc. are transferred to the former place of the 2nd turret, and we give the freed up space for additional boilers and turbines. "There is an opinion" (as you understand - not without the help of SpringSharp) that a speed of about 28 knots in calm water can be considered normal for such a ship, therefore, it is necessary to squeeze out 55..60 thousand hp on 4 shafts (turbines are direct-acting) and lengthen the hull.
Thoughts German look are:
Not a long-ass with increased vibrations, friction resistance, protrusions, and even the placement of elongated shafts, and not a
The nose is relatively easy to manufacture, greatly reduces the Froude number and still allows you to accommodate coal, fuel oil and living quarters for prize teams, for which we generally rebuild the tip.
Generally writing it ought to be a new nose being built from Anton turret (more precisely, from the bow traverse) onto the bow end, lengthening it by 45 meters (you can dock with the finished hull, for example, in the neighboring civil shipyard dock Vulkan-Stettin - where superliners were built before the WW1), so that, together with a forecastle, they could gain normal seaworthiness and at the same time increase the number of coal pits and oil tanks. A light (10 cm) belt extends onto the new giga-nose. The cruising range is about 10,000 miles at a speed of 12 knots. In the absence of American 14" guns, all turrets are equipped with a choice of 2x30.5 cm or even 3x28 cm (the latter, I'm afraid, is unlikely). In upper & lower casemats mounts instead of a dozen 6" and a dozen 7.5 cm, there are a dozen and a half 10.5 cm light cruisers' guns have been installed. May be some torpedoes underwater.
SpringSharp v3beta4
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Alfred von Tirpitz, German II Reich Gross Kreuzer laid down 1913 (Engine 1915)
Displacement:
23 530 t light; 24 685 t standard; 26 963 t normal; 28 786 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(715,22 ft / 715,22 ft) x 81,04 ft x (24,93 / 26,37 ft)
(218,00 m / 218,00 m) x 24,70 m x (7,60 / 8,04 m)
Armament:
9 - 11,02" / 280 mm 45,0 cal guns - 675,51lbs / 306,40kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, aft deck aft
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
1 x 3-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward
1 double raised mount
22 - 4,13" / 105 mm 45,0 cal guns - 35,62lbs / 16,16kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
22 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
16 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 6 863 lbs / 3 113 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9,84" / 250 mm 328,08 ft / 100,00 m 10,79 ft / 3,29 m
Ends: 3,94" / 100 mm 387,14 ft / 118,00 m 10,79 ft / 3,29 m
Upper: 1,97" / 50 mm 321,85 ft / 98,10 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 71% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9,84" / 250 mm 7,87" / 200 mm 5,91" / 150 mm
2nd: 3,94" / 100 mm 1,97" / 50 mm -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 92 416 shp / 68 942 Kw = 28,00 kts
Range 10 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4 101 tons (50% coal)
Complement:
1 051 - 1 367
Cost:
£2,119 million / $8,477 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 500 tons, 5,6%
- Guns: 1 500 tons, 5,6%
Armour: 3 980 tons, 14,8%
- Belts: 2 403 tons, 8,9%
- Armament: 1 577 tons, 5,8%
Machinery: 3 667 tons, 13,6%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14 228 tons, 52,8%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 433 tons, 12,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 155 tons, 0,6%
- Hull below water: 60 tons
- Hull above water: 60 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 5 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47 973 lbs / 21 760 Kg = 71,6 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 3,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,06
Metacentric height 4,1 ft / 1,2 m
Roll period: 16,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,95
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,57
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,653 / 0,659
Length to Beam Ratio: 8,83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 40,00%, 32,81 ft / 10,00 m, 32,81 ft / 10,00 m
- Forward deck: 10,00%, 32,81 ft / 10,00 m, 32,81 ft / 10,00 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Average freeboard: 28,54 ft / 8,70 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66,6%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 223,5%
Waterplane Area: 44 522 Square feet or 4 136 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 156%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 216 lbs/sq ft or 1 053 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,36
- Longitudinal: 2,30
- Overall: 1,44
23 530 t light; 24 685 t standard; 26 963 t normal; 28 786 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(715,22 ft / 715,22 ft) x 81,04 ft x (24,93 / 26,37 ft)
(218,00 m / 218,00 m) x 24,70 m x (7,60 / 8,04 m)
Armament:
9 - 11,02" / 280 mm 45,0 cal guns - 675,51lbs / 306,40kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, aft deck aft
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
1 x 3-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward
1 double raised mount
22 - 4,13" / 105 mm 45,0 cal guns - 35,62lbs / 16,16kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
22 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
16 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 6 863 lbs / 3 113 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9,84" / 250 mm 328,08 ft / 100,00 m 10,79 ft / 3,29 m
Ends: 3,94" / 100 mm 387,14 ft / 118,00 m 10,79 ft / 3,29 m
Upper: 1,97" / 50 mm 321,85 ft / 98,10 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 71% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9,84" / 250 mm 7,87" / 200 mm 5,91" / 150 mm
2nd: 3,94" / 100 mm 1,97" / 50 mm -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 92 416 shp / 68 942 Kw = 28,00 kts
Range 10 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4 101 tons (50% coal)
Complement:
1 051 - 1 367
Cost:
£2,119 million / $8,477 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 500 tons, 5,6%
- Guns: 1 500 tons, 5,6%
Armour: 3 980 tons, 14,8%
- Belts: 2 403 tons, 8,9%
- Armament: 1 577 tons, 5,8%
Machinery: 3 667 tons, 13,6%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14 228 tons, 52,8%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 433 tons, 12,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 155 tons, 0,6%
- Hull below water: 60 tons
- Hull above water: 60 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 5 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47 973 lbs / 21 760 Kg = 71,6 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 3,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,06
Metacentric height 4,1 ft / 1,2 m
Roll period: 16,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,95
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,57
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,653 / 0,659
Length to Beam Ratio: 8,83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 40,00%, 32,81 ft / 10,00 m, 32,81 ft / 10,00 m
- Forward deck: 10,00%, 32,81 ft / 10,00 m, 32,81 ft / 10,00 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Average freeboard: 28,54 ft / 8,70 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66,6%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 223,5%
Waterplane Area: 44 522 Square feet or 4 136 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 156%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 216 lbs/sq ft or 1 053 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,36
- Longitudinal: 2,30
- Overall: 1,44
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Another world it could be if... DA TIRPITZ GOES FASTA! MOAR FASTA!
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Unusual that Britain never used much coal tar oil in their ship boilers, unlike Germany. Perhaps it was not as economically efficient as coal, as this discussion deals with modified commercial designs rather than purpose-built warships.
Challenge.
The year is 1930 and you are the naval minister of a minor but still sizeable navy (Australia, Netherlands, Spain, Poland, SA powers etcetera) and your government has approved a major increase in finding for your navy with the aim of eventually bringing your fleet up several rings of the ladder of naval heirarchy. With money planned to go towards a class of proper battleships built domestically, as well as supporting cruisers and destroyers.
For the moment however tensions with your neighbors mean that you have been directed to purchase existing vessels off the major navies. A pair of battleships are desired, as well as a pair of cruisers, a flotilla of destroyers, and a quartet of submarines. To ensure ease of repair all ships are desired to be purchased from the same source nation, the cruisers and submarines can be newly built ships but must be based on an existing design with little modification. The battleships and destroyers must be classes already in service that your nation of choice is willing to scrap now or in the near future.
What ships do you buy?
Furthermore in 1935 your government decides to cancel it's plans to buy new battleships in favor of rebuilding the ships it already ordered, as well as buying a further trio of cruisers, twelve destroyers, and two dozen submarines. Now though all ships ordered are allowed to be newly built so long as they are based on already building types and your nation of choice is willing to give you a license to build some of them domestically. If another one or two ships of the class of battleship you ordered in 1930 are still available your government may also pay to rebuild them similarly to the initial ships you ordered.
So how do you go about rebuilding your battleships, and what new ships do you order?
The year is 1930 and you are the naval minister of a minor but still sizeable navy (Australia, Netherlands, Spain, Poland, SA powers etcetera) and your government has approved a major increase in finding for your navy with the aim of eventually bringing your fleet up several rings of the ladder of naval heirarchy. With money planned to go towards a class of proper battleships built domestically, as well as supporting cruisers and destroyers.
For the moment however tensions with your neighbors mean that you have been directed to purchase existing vessels off the major navies. A pair of battleships are desired, as well as a pair of cruisers, a flotilla of destroyers, and a quartet of submarines. To ensure ease of repair all ships are desired to be purchased from the same source nation, the cruisers and submarines can be newly built ships but must be based on an existing design with little modification. The battleships and destroyers must be classes already in service that your nation of choice is willing to scrap now or in the near future.
What ships do you buy?
Furthermore in 1935 your government decides to cancel it's plans to buy new battleships in favor of rebuilding the ships it already ordered, as well as buying a further trio of cruisers, twelve destroyers, and two dozen submarines. Now though all ships ordered are allowed to be newly built so long as they are based on already building types and your nation of choice is willing to give you a license to build some of them domestically. If another one or two ships of the class of battleship you ordered in 1930 are still available your government may also pay to rebuild them similarly to the initial ships you ordered.
So how do you go about rebuilding your battleships, and what new ships do you order?
Since I don´t think this is a big enough idea for its own thread: I´ve been wondering for some time now how things would play out if the Brandenburg-class had gotten the alternative layout considered with the central guns mounted in single-gun wing turrets. It was rejected due to the greater ship size required, but it actually fullfilled the intial requirement about end on fire better and prevents the two main issues of the class, the blast damage and different barrel length of the central turret. I mean the debate about main vs. secondary battery would still go on, but with a successful design, might the Germans continue with larger main batteries? Maybe as otl with the larges QF possible (the 24cm gun) as an all gun main armament? And would other nations follow or would internationally the standard pre-dreadnought still establish itself?
Go to the UK, see what they are willing to sell from their WWI leftovers.
Timing wise the best possible choice would probably be two Iron Dukes: Just stricken from the RN, but not yet scrapped. Destroyers probably Clemsons if you really want used ones, as the US has tons of them and will need to get rid of some after the LNT. That said with building times for destroyers (and subs) you might be better of to get license for off-the shelf designs from one of the major powers (or for subs one of the German design bureaus). For cruisers I have no idea, as at that point I don´t think there are any useful second hand cruisers available. I mean you might get your hand on some German Gazelles, but are they really worth the money? (then again Yugoslavia clearly thought so a few years earlier)
Minimum modernisation for an Iron duke would be torpedo bulges, improved fire control, shift of the secondary at least partially from casemates to turrets. If one really could go all out on the Iron Duke and with a bit of hindsight additionally get rid of the Q turret and use the gained space and weight for more speed by replacing engines, up-armour against bombs/plunging fire, replace the casemates with DP turrets and add a signicant number of AA-guns. New cruisers depend greatly on politics, strategic situation and available budget. Same for destroyers and subs if you really bought old ones, otherwise just improve on the original order.
Old Cruisers:
Try to get a few D's or a Ceres/Carlisle off the UK. Second choice is Omahas from the US just for sheer firepower despite their countless flawes.
Old Destroyers:
Buy the V&W's the British scrapped under the LNT, should be about a flotilla or more of them available. Second choice is S-class or if we're going the US route some Clemsons with the 4" guns replaced by 5"/51s like they were designed to be.
Old Subs:
Depends on what exactly my navy's tasks are but likely British H-class with R and L class plus USN S-class as my next choices. The newer the better.
Old BB's:
Buy Tiger off the British. See if Japan will sell Hiei since she's supposed to be scrapped anyways. If not, buy an Iron Duke. Second choice: USN Wyoming-class. Give Renown/QE-style rebuilds.
New Cruisers:
I've got the old cruisers for small cruiser work, so I'm buying treaty cruisers, most likely a New Orleans or a Wichita, though a Zara, Algerie, or County or a 12-gun 6" ship are possibilities.
New Destroyers:
Either Tribals, JKNs, or if it's the late 1930's a Benson.
New Subs:
Depends on my tasks. If I'm a coastal navy buy the British 1930's S-class. If I'm more of an oceangoing navy probably T-class, possibly an early Gato.
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