Alternate warships of nations

Argus class aircraft carrier HMS Glorious - Part 4 - Surface Combatants
Cruisers


The 3 Tiger class eventually completed 1959-61 IOTL were cancelled and scrapped in 1946 ITTL although they had been launched. 3 of the older Southampton and Colony class cruisers were run on until the middle of the 1960s instead.

In common with aircraft carriers the TTL Admiralty had decided that it was more cost effective to build new cruisers than rebuild the older ones. Therefore Belfast's 1955-59 refit of OTL didn't happen ITTL and neither did the rebuild of Swiftsure begun in 1956 and abandoned in 1960. The money and dockyard capacity released by not rebuilding these cruisers was used to accelerate the conversion of Triumph to a heavy repair ship. IOTL it was begun in 1956 but not completed until 1965. ITTL it was still begun in 1956 but was completed in 1960.

However, there was still not enough money to build any of the guided missile cruisers that were planned in the 1950s ITTL. There weren't any escort cruiser designs to succeed them because the Royal Navy was setting its sights lower. Rather than the force of 5 escort cruisers and 5 strike carriers of 53,000 tons planned in 1960 IOTL it realised that the Treasury would only provide the money to build (and man) 3 escort cruisers and 3 large strike carriers or no escort cruisers and 6 smaller strike carriers of the 35,000 ton type. The Admiralty decided to go for 6 strike carriers of the 35,000 ton type and no escort cruisers to support them because it was more flexible.

Large Destroyers

The Admiralty was forced to cancel all 16 Daring class destroyers at the end of World War II rather than only 8 of them. IOTL the 8 Darings that were built were completed 1952-54 and in ITTL their place was taken by re-commissioning the 8 Battle class destroyers that went into the Reserve Fleet in the late 1940s.

ITTL the Americans offered a licence on the Terrier and Tatar missile systems on favourable terms in the middle of the 1950s which led to the cancellation of Sea Slug in the 1954 Defence Review on the grounds that the American missiles would be in service sooner and cheaper. It didn't work out like that because the 8 County class destroyers built with the system ITTL didn't enter service any earlier and they weren't any cheaper to build. OTOH the TTL County class carried 60 Terriers instead of 30 Sea Slugs due to the more efficient stowage system. Furthermore the American target indication radars were lighter than the Type 901 which enabled 2 to be fitted instead of one so they could engage twice as many targets. The Mk 10 launchers fitted to the TTL County class were also capable of firing the ASROC which was built under licence in Australia instead of Ikara.

The 4 Batch 1 ships were fitted with Terrier, but the 4 Batch 2 ships were fitted to fire the Standard SM-1ER missile. The licence to build the American missiles included export rights in the Commonwealth (less Canada) and Europe (less France and Spain). Thus the Dutch and Italian cruisers fitted with Terrier in the 1960s were fitted with British built Terrier systems. The Australian, Dutch, German and Italian guided missile destroyers and frigates built in the 1960s and 1970s were also fitted with British built Tatar or Standard MR systems.

ITTL the requirement was for 2 Terrier/Standard ER armed destroyers per strike carrier for a total of 12. Originally the plan was to build 4 County class Batch 3 with the Standard ER missile and ADAWS Mk 2. However, this was replaced by the Heavy Destroyer project. This was effectively an Anglicised Kidd class destroyer. The main armament was two Mk 26 launchers each fed by a 44-round magazine. 4 SPG-51 target indicator radars were fitted so it could engage twice as many aircraft as the TTL County and OTL Type 82 destroyer. The Anglicisation was that the Type 988 radar replaced the American SPS-48 radar, one single 4.5" Mk 8 gun replaced the 2 single 5" mountings and 4 Olympus gas turbines replaced the American LM2500 units. It would have been possible to replace the Mk 26 launchers and their magazines with a pair of 61-cell Mk 41 launchers and give them the New Threat Upgrade or Aegis in the 1980s.

As at 1966 the plan was to build 12 of these ships. That is 4 to build which would be ordered in 1967 to bring the GMD force up to the required strength of 12 ships. Then 8 would be built to replace the County class as new ships were considered more cost effective than upgrading the Counties. However, the order for the first 4 was deferred in 1966 and the entire class was cancelled a year later when it was decided to reduce the strike carrier force from 6 ships to 3 when the withdrawal from East of Suez was completed.

The plan to modernise the 8 County Batch 1 and 2 ships to Batch 3 standard was revived. The Batch 1 ships were modernised first and the Batch 2 ships were actually brought up to Batch 4 standard with the Type 2016 sonar instead of the Type 184 and a more advanced ADAWS system than the Mk 2. Although not as capable as the projected Heavy Destroyer and just as expensive to run the modernised Counties of TTL were a great improvement over the OTL Counties. All 8 ships enjoyed much longer service lives in spite of the large crews needed for them.

Small Destroyers and Frigates

ITTL 60 AS versions of the Type 12 were built in place of the 41 Type 12, 12 Type 14 and 7 Type 81 built IOTL. Because I have wanked the development of light helicopters for the Royal Navy the first 18 built (instead of the 6 Whitby and 12 Type 14 frigates) looked like the OTL Rothesay class after their 1966-72 refits (less the Sea Cat). These were followed by 42 Leanders built in place of the 9 Rothesays, 26 Leanders and 7 Type 81s built IOTL.

ITTL 12 AA versions of the Type 12 were built in place of the OTL Type 41, Type 61 and Battle class fleet picket conversions. The TTL version of Type 41 had the Whitby class hull and machinery. They had the same armament as the OTL Type 41 but more aircraft direction capability than the OTL Type 61 because the larger hull allowed a height finding radar and the 6-track CDS to be fitted. Unlike the real Types 41 and 61 the TTL version was fast enough to work with the strike carriers, which is why 4 extra ships were built instead of the Battle class fleet picket conversions. As they were more useful than the OTL ships the first 8 were fitted with the small ship version of ADA in the second half of the 1960s and the ships built in place of the 4 Battle class conversions had ADAWS Mk 4 fitted in the early 1970s.

ITTL the Indian Navy bought 8 Type 12 in place of the 2 Type 12, 3 Type 14 and 3 Type 41 they bought IOTL. The RNZN bought 4 Leanders instead of the OTL 2 Rothesays and 2 Leanders. The SAN bought 3 Leanders instead of the 3 Rothesays of OTL. Chile bought 2 Leandres as OTL. The RNLN bought 6 Leanders built in Dutch yards as OTL. Finally as OTL the RAN bought 6 Type 12s built in their own yards, but instead of the hangar and flight deck for a Wasp helicopter their River class were completed with an Australian built ASROC launcher.

ITTL there was no Ikara modernisation of the Leander class because there was no Ikara. Instead all 42 Leanders built for the RN ITTL were fitted with ADAWS Mk 5 and 6 anti-submarine torpedo tubes. The Limbo AS mortar was removed so that the Wasp helicopter could be replaced by the Lynx.

ITTL the RN planned to follow the Leander class with a Standard MR armed frigate propelled by all gas turbine machinery. However, it grew into a small destroyer and was named the Light Destroyer to distinguish it from the Standard ER armed Heavy Destroyer. It had an enlarged Type 42 Batch III hull with uprated Olympus and Tyne gas turbines (possibly GOGAG instead of COGOG) to maintain the OTL speed. The first 14 Light Destroyers were armed with one 4.5" Mk 8 gun, one Mk 13 launcher serving a magazine for 40 Standard MR or Harpoon missiles and 6 anti-submarine torpedo tubes. However, the hull was large enough for a pair of Phalanx CIWS and 8 Harpoon missiles to be fitted later on. The hangar and flight deck large enough for one Merlin or 2 Lynx helicopters.

14 Light Destroyers Batch 1 were built in place of the 8 Type 21 and 6 Type 42 Batch 1 ships even though they were more expensive than the OTL ships. 8 Batch 2 ships were built instead of the 4 Type 22 Batch 1 and 4 Type 42 Batch 2. 14 Batch 3 were built instead of the 6 Type 22 Batch 2, 4 Type 22 Batch 3 and 4 Type 42 Batch 3 ships. This brought the total built for the Royal Navy up to 36 in 3 batches.

The 14 Light Destroyers Batch 1 had the OTL Type 42 Batch 1 electronics, that is ADAWS Mk 4, the Type 965P radar, the Type 184M sonar and a pair of SPG-51 radars in place of the Type 909 target indicator sets. Subsequent batches received ADAWS Mk 7, the Type 1022 radar, the Types 2031 and 2050 sonar as and when they became available IOTL.

The money spent on developing Sea Dart and Sea Wolf IOTL was spent on improving the Anglicised Standard Missile system ITTL. This included a British equivalent to the New Threat Upgrade which was installed on the 14 Batch 3 Light Destroyers and refitted to the surviving Batch 1 and 2 ships. The destroyers and frigates bought by the Australians, Dutch and Italians in the 1980s that were fitted with American built Standard MR systems would have had British built ones ITTL, which might have included the British NTU equivalent. The 16 Type 23 frigates of TTL had a Mk 41 launcher firing Standard MR missiles in place of the VL Sea Wolf system and probably had the British equivalent of the NTU too.

In common with OTL sale of 2 Type 42s to Argentina, one Light Destroyer was built in the UK and another built in Argentina ITTL. Also in common with OTL the Australians cancelled plans to build up to 10 Light Destroyers in their own yards, but then bought 4 from British yards, instead of 4 American built Perry class patrol frigates. The Australians then planned to build 6 Light Destroyers in their own yards instead of the 6 Australian built Perry class planned IOTL, but in the event only 2 were built.
 
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A super Baltimore I designed, with the AA armament of a Battleship. My design concept was to build a "Large Cruiser" more focused around carrier group AA defense and screening than as a Cruiser killer, though most cruisers would not want to get into a fight with this.

Super Baltimore, USA Super Heavy Cruiser laid down 1941

Displacement:
20 656 t light; 22 942 t standard; 24 503 t normal; 25 751 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(755.11 ft / 750.00 ft) x 77.00 ft x (27.00 / 28.06 ft)
(230.16 m / 228.60 m) x 23.47 m x (8.23 / 8.55 m)

Armament:
12 - 8.00" / 203 mm 55.0 cal guns - 276.33lbs / 125.34kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1941 Model
4 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 500 per gun
Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1941 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
64 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 56.0 cal guns - 2.11lbs / 0.96kg shells, 15 000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1941 Model
16 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
30 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.25lbs / 0.11kg shells, 15 000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1941 Model
30 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4 645 lbs / 2 107 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 505.00 ft / 153.92 m 10.60 ft / 3.23 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 505.00 ft / 153.92 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 505.00 ft / 153.92 m 24.78 ft / 7.55 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 5.00" / 127 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 3.00" / 76 mm Quarter deck: 3.00" / 76 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 8.00" / 203 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 149 468 shp / 111 503 Kw = 33.30 kts
Range 12 000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 810 tons

Complement:
978 - 1 272

Cost:
£10.899 million / $43.595 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 420 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 7 378 tons, 30.1 %
- Belts: 2 092 tons, 8.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 463 tons, 1.9 %
- Armament: 1 114 tons, 4.5 %
- Armour Deck: 3 564 tons, 14.5 %
- Conning Tower: 145 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 3 950 tons, 16.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7 908 tons, 32.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 846 tons, 15.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33 809 lbs / 15 336 Kg = 132.1 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 4.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a straight bulbous bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.556
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.33 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 29.00 ft / 8.84 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.56 ft / 6.88 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.9 %
Waterplane Area: 41 297 Square feet or 3 837 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 123 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 139 lbs/sq ft or 677 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.01
- Longitudinal: 1.12
- Overall: 1.02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
[Spoiler/]
 
A super Baltimore I designed, with the AA armament of a Battleship. My design concept was to build a "Large Cruiser" more focused around carrier group AA defense and screening than as a Cruiser killer, though most cruisers would not want to get into a fight with this.

Super Baltimore, USA Super Heavy Cruiser laid down 1941

Displacement:
20 656 t light; 22 942 t standard; 24 503 t normal; 25 751 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(755.11 ft / 750.00 ft) x 77.00 ft x (27.00 / 28.06 ft)
(230.16 m / 228.60 m) x 23.47 m x (8.23 / 8.55 m)

Armament:
12 - 8.00" / 203 mm 55.0 cal guns - 276.33lbs / 125.34kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1941 Model
4 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 500 per gun
Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1941 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
64 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 56.0 cal guns - 2.11lbs / 0.96kg shells, 15 000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1941 Model
16 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
30 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.25lbs / 0.11kg shells, 15 000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1941 Model
30 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4 645 lbs / 2 107 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 505.00 ft / 153.92 m 10.60 ft / 3.23 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 505.00 ft / 153.92 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 505.00 ft / 153.92 m 24.78 ft / 7.55 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 5.00" / 127 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 3.00" / 76 mm Quarter deck: 3.00" / 76 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 8.00" / 203 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 149 468 shp / 111 503 Kw = 33.30 kts
Range 12 000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 810 tons

Complement:
978 - 1 272

Cost:
£10.899 million / $43.595 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 420 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 7 378 tons, 30.1 %
- Belts: 2 092 tons, 8.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 463 tons, 1.9 %
- Armament: 1 114 tons, 4.5 %
- Armour Deck: 3 564 tons, 14.5 %
- Conning Tower: 145 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 3 950 tons, 16.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7 908 tons, 32.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 846 tons, 15.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33 809 lbs / 15 336 Kg = 132.1 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 4.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a straight bulbous bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.556
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.33 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 29.00 ft / 8.84 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.56 ft / 6.88 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.9 %
Waterplane Area: 41 297 Square feet or 3 837 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 123 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 139 lbs/sq ft or 677 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.01
- Longitudinal: 1.12
- Overall: 1.02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
[Spoiler/]
Just pointing out by this point the USN had already decided that absent the autoloading 8" of the Des Moines, 6 12">9 10">12 8", so an Alaska with the B turret removed and extra AA fitted in place might be more likely
 
Argus class aircraft carrier HMS Glorious - Part 5 - The 1970s

After Argus, Ark Royal and Eagle were paid off in 1972 the Three Follies as the RAF along with the anti-carrier elements in Parliament and the Media had dubbed Courageous, Furious and Glorious carried on with two ships in full-commission and the third in refit or reserve. Although the normal air group was 38 aircraft (12 Spectres, 12 Buccaneers, 4 Hawkeyes, one Greyhound and 9 Sea Kings) another 6 to 9 Spectres or Buccaneers could be squeezed in. The extra aircraft were often carried during exercises and were provided by the naval elements of the RAF's Buccaneer and Spectre operational conversion units. By 1980 the Spectres were armed with 4 Sky Flash and 4 Sidewinder anti-aircraft missiles and a pair of 30mm cannon.

The early paying off of Ark Royal resulted in Glorious taking her place in the 1976 BBCTV fly-on-the-wall documentary series Sailor. Another minor change to history is that all 3 ships were extras in the BBCTV drama series Warship about HMS Hero a fictional Leander class frigate. One of Hero's commanding officers was Commander Alan Glenn, a former Fleet Air Arm fighter pilot, portrayed by Bryan Marshall. IOTL his previous posting to HMS Hero was a Phantom pilot on Ark Royal, but ITTL it would have been a Spectre pilot on Glorious. I have a hazy memory of the scene where he received news of his appointment taking place on Ark Royal so ITTL it would have been filmed aboard Glorious.

Courageous paid off at the end of 1978 to provide the crew for Indomitable, which was due to commission the following year. Furious paid off in 1981 to provide the crew for Implacable, which was due to commission in 1982. At that time Glorious was due to pay off after Implacable had completed her working up. Then she would go into the Standby Squadron at Chatham and only be moved onto the Disposal List when Indefatigable completed her working up, which at that time was expected to be in 1984. Then the Royal Navy would have Implacable and Indefatigable in full commission, which would allow Indomitable to pay off for her first long refit.

Then the 1981 Defence Review happened.

The strike carrier force was to be reduced from the current force of 3 would be reduced to 2. Under the current system one ship was always in refit/reserve so that one would always be available in peace and two in war. Under the new system there would be periods when no ships would be available in peace and only one usually available in war. However, the current force of 2 air groups would be retained.

Under the new plans Glorious would be paid off and scrapped after Implacable completed working up instead of spending a few years in reserve pending the completion and working up of Indefatigable. Indomitable was sold to Australia, but the actual transfer would not take place until Indefatigable was completed.

Meanwhile the Albion, Bulwark and Centaur, which had been converted to commando carriers under the 1957 Defence Review and survived the withdrawal from East of Suez were paid off in 1976 as a result of the 1974 Defence Review, which also cancelled the planned class or replacement ships. All 3 ships went straight onto the Disposal List and had gone to the breakers by 2nd April 1982.

The former light fleet carrier HMS Triumph, which ITTL completed its conversion to heavy repair ship by 1960 instead of 1965 was also paid off as a result of the 1974 Defence Review and plans to build a replacement ship were abandoned too. My copy of British Warships and Auxiliaries 1981 by Mike Critchley would say that she was in the Reserve Fleet at Chatham (for Disposal) in both timelines. Scrapping began between then and 2nd April 1982.

The Landing Platforms Dock (LPD) Fearless and Intrepid also survived the 1960 defence cuts. However, they ceased to be fully operational warships following the 1974 Defence Review. One ship was always in refit/reserve and was rotated with the other which became the cadet training ship. They replaced the frigates in the Dartmouth Training Squadron, which had in turn replaced Triumph in the cadet training role in the 1950s. Both ships were to be discarded without replacement under the 1981 Defence Review, but this had not been carried out at 2nd April 1982.

IOTL Blake and Tiger were paid off at the end of the 1970s to provide the crews for Bulwark and Hermes after it had been decided to retain them until the Invincible class through deck cruisers were completed. British Warships and Auxiliaries 1981 said that Blake was in reserve and Tiger was for disposal. Neither ship appeared in the TTL version of the book because they were scrapped incomplete in 1946 along with Lion.

In the middle of the 1960s there were about 80 destroyers and frigates in commission, which the withdrawal from East of Suez reduced to 70. The 1974 Defence Review reduced this to 60 and the 1981 Defence Review reduced it to 42 plus 8 in reserve.

According to my copy of British Warships and Auxiliaries 1981 there were 55 destroyers and frigates in full commission plus 3 on trials and training duties and 12 in the Standby Squadron at Chatham as follows:
6 large guided missile destroyers (Bristol and 5 Counties) all in commission plus one County (Kent) as a harbour training ship
19 modern "frigoyers" (8 Type 21, 3 Type 22 and 8 Type 42) plus 9 building (3 Type 22 and 6 Type 22)
26 Leander class frigates of which 25 were in commission and the 26th was in the Standby Squadron at Chatham
9 Rothesay class frigate of which 5 were in commission, 2 were trials and training ships and 2 were in the Standby Squadron at Chatham
1 Whitby class in service as a training ship plus one (Eastbourne) as a harbour training ship
7 Tribal class in the Standby Squadron at Chatham
1 Type 41 in the Standby Squadron at Chatham
1 Type 61 in the Standby Squadron at Chatham plus one (Salisbury) as an accommodation ship.​

In addition to the above there was also one Daring class destroyer and 3 Type 14 frigates on harbour service.

The TTL copy of that book would still have shown 70 destroyers and frigates of which 55 were in full commission, 3 were trials and training ships and 12 were in the Standby Squadron. However, the composition of that force would be different as follows:
8 County class "heavy" destroyers, all in full commission
19 Light Destroyers (in place of the Type 21, 22 and 42) with 9 more building
42 Leander class frigates of which 28 were in full commission, one was a training ship, one was a trials ship and 12 were in the Standby Squadron at Chatham
1 Whitby class frigate as a training ship plus another 6 as harbour training or accommodation ships​

In addition to the above there would be one Battle class destroyer on harbour service instead of the Daring class ship of OTL.

Also note that all 8 Counties had retained both twin 4.5" gun turrets and all 42 Leanders still had their twin 4.5" turret because none of them had them removed to make way for Exocet SSMs or the Ikara anti-submarine missile. All 19 Light Destroyers had been fitted with 8 Harpoon SSM.

IOTL there were 14 "frigoyers" armed with area defence SAM systems (5 Counties with Seaslug, Bristol with Sea Dart and 8 Type 42 with Sea Dart). ITTL the force was nearly doubled to 27 made up of 8 Counties armed with Standard SM-1ER (plus 2 target indicator radars instead of one in the OTL ships) and 19 Light Destroyers armed with Standard SM-1MR (with 2 target indicator radars like the OTL Type 42). They also had a better air search radar than the Type 965. They were either fitted with licence built SPS-48 radars or the Type 1022 or even the Type 1030. This was possible because there was no Sea Wolf and therefore no Type 967/968 radar. Therefore the money and design resources could be concentrated on Types 1022 and 1030.
 
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Ok what would be the smallest you could make an escort aircraft carrier and it still be a useable flat top for at least convoy operations and if operating in a squadron formation maybe air cover for an invasion somewhere. HMS Archer is the smallest one that comes to mind but could you go smaller than her?
 
Ok what would be the smallest you could make an escort aircraft carrier and it still be a useable flat top for at least convoy operations and if operating in a squadron formation maybe air cover for an invasion somewhere. HMS Archer is the smallest one that comes to mind but could you go smaller than her?
Well you had the converted cargo ships & oilers.....

Maybe HMS Audacity? The Somebody in Germany during WWII reckoned they could do it on 3,500t however with the Klein-Flugzeugtrager. Not too sure how you land back on a flight deck less than 100m long and 14m wide however..... Solid brass balls the size of the moon would be a definate requirement.....
 
Ok what would be the smallest you could make an escort aircraft carrier and it still be a useable flat top for at least convoy operations and if operating in a squadron formation maybe air cover for an invasion somewhere. HMS Archer is the smallest one that comes to mind but could you go smaller than her?

HMS Archer herself was probably too small for the missions you specify being capable of operating only ~ 15 aircraft at 8,000 GRT .
In addition after the HMS Dasher accident both the USN and RN reduced the POL and ammo stores carried on such ships, making them less capable of extensive intensive operations.

IIRC even larger CVEs were hard to adapt to attack/defence missions. Some RN ships were delayed by trying to squeeze in extra radars and Fighter direction centres.

So 8K is the very minimum and CVEs at that level should do no more than hunting group roles.

Moving further along this area, IMHO trying to combine role from a convoy ASW escort up to auxiliary attack functions in a single carrier design is a mistake
... and unnecessary for an "air minded" (and prescient) navy

They should build a combination of designs
  1. MACs for the convoy ASW role (lots of them) capable of carrying 4-8 TBR.
    Design so you keep 90%+ of the cargo capacity of such ships)

  2. More reasonably sized CVEs carrying 16-24 aircraft for a variety of tertiary roles
    (convoy escort where fighters are needed, ASW hunting group, aircraft delivery etc)
    Aside: again build on Merchant rather than convert passenger ships, much better use of tonnage.

  3. proper carriers but to a cheaper design like the British 42 "light" carrier for secondary roles
    i.e. where air dominance has been achieved (area coverage, invasion support etc)
    50-60 aircraft (mix as needed) but Include at least some repair ships

  4. True Fleet carriers .. Essex or better for the "line of battle" and where the air is strongly contested
    90 or so a/c - FB heavy for flexibility
 
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The sole reason I asked about how small you could make a useable CVE is because I have a nation that can't build merchants roughly over ~8,000 tons and warship wise its smaller. They were depended on foreign yards for larger warships but they lost their CVLs in battle and they need flat tops ASAP and foreign yards are out of the question. They got to perform landing operations against hostile forces on small to medium size islands along with defending long range convoys in the Pacific.

I was thinking they could build a squadron size unit of CVEs say six ships. Two of them would be carrying fighters and the rest would be carrying dive bombers or landing ops. Otherwise they would serve as flagships in convoy operations.
 
The sole reason I asked about how small you could make a useable CVE is because I have a nation that can't build merchants roughly over ~8,000 tons and warship wise its smaller. They were depended on foreign yards for larger warships but they lost their CVLs in battle and they need flat tops ASAP and foreign yards are out of the question. They got to perform landing operations against hostile forces on small to medium size islands along with defending long range convoys in the Pacific.

I was thinking they could build a squadron size unit of CVEs say six ships. Two of them would be carrying fighters and the rest would be carrying dive bombers or landing ops. Otherwise they would serve as flagships in convoy operations.

If your nations have convoys to defend in the depths of the Pacific then I suspect MACs would still be useful.

OTL MACs were not conversions but modifications of planned ship ships. Build time was only 4 months so that would suit your needs.

The first set of 6 MACs were based on 8K ton deep load grain carriers. These had the luxury of a hangar and lift.
The next 4 were simpler design, no hangar, and based on similarly sized tankers (which had pros and cons).
If your nation has the need, it ought to be able to build either of these.

FYI The final 11 were similar designs but on 16K deep load tankers.

All these carried only 3 or 4 ASW aircraft but provided a few torps were available would also threaten a Q raider.

If the threat includes some Long Range Patrol aircraft, then you need a few fighters.
HMS Audacity though often called an escort carrier only carried 8 fighters on deck so perhaps one or more MACs could manage 6+ suitable fighters.

For the other missions you posit, then a MAC is never enough. Too slow, too vulnerable.
If the air opposition if light, then you certainly can use CVEs
(which could be the size of HMS Avenger/USS Long Island but would be better larger)
Note the plural. As you say that would need numbers. 6 in a squadron is nice (as used by the RN in Op Dragoon though these all carried 50% more aircraft than Avenger)

However if there is ANY real opposition, in numbers or skill, or even limited suicide attacks, this squadron will NOT be enough.

Minor point: I think your balance of aircraft roles is flawed.
You will always need some ASW capability, say 20% and by 1943 the ratio of fighter to DB is far too low.
 
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Some news of the Yamato gets out. While designing the Montanas a modified Iowa is placed in production using the engines of the South Dakotas but carrying 9-18" guns.
 
Some news of the Yamato gets out. While designing the Montanas a modified Iowa is placed in production using the engines of the South Dakotas but carrying 9-18" guns.

South Dakota engines, 135K SHP, push a 35K ton hull 27 knots, Iowa engines 150K SHPpush 45K ton hull 33 knotss... put 9 x 18 " guns on Iowa hull, with 135SHP. Engines, I doubt you could get above 22 knots. Which means Yamato is 3 knots+ faster. Imo not a good design
 
Some news of the Yamato gets out. While designing the Montanas a modified Iowa is placed in production using the engines of the South Dakotas but carrying 9-18" guns.
When does this news get out? Because the US has 16/50s Mark 7s ready by 43 when the Iowas started to enter the fleet. With a MK 8 Heavy shell that would be good enough to deal with the Yamato.

Any designed for 18 inch guns is going to have to start in the 30s to ready to use by WWII. The Yamatos were laid down in 37 and no one in the west had a good idea about the true nature of them till 44. But to use 18 inch guns I'm assuming 18/45s if USN history is anything to go by you will need a whole new ship, most likely on the Montana Hull with two forward one aft turret set up in trip mount.
 
Some news of the Yamato gets out. While designing the Montanas a modified Iowa is placed in production using the engines of the South Dakotas but carrying 9-18" guns.

I looked it up on navweaps and the only 18" gun the US made was an experimental gun made in the 20's. They did test it again in 1938 but decided against using it for several reasons. And i doubt you could get 3x3 18" guns onto the Iowa and still have an acceptably armoured and fast BB.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_18-48_mk1.php
 
There's still the small matter of the armor...

Why is 16 inch such a magic calliber??? rapid fire 6 inch can do much more damage in a shorter time, so it is not the guncalliber, it is the general layout of a design, whcih in case of a battelship, or battlecruiser is a ballance between protection, seed and firepower. In reality no perfect design exists, as you can invest in firepower and rtection, at the cost of speed (Montana, Yamato), or go for firepower and speed, at the cost of protection (Iowa). Do all three in a single design is not possible, or you will need to give in firepower (Scharnhorst).

Also more logical is to have the opportunity of numbers. gainst a single large enemy ship, field numereous smaller ones, causing attricion of the large single warship, as it needs to handle more targets. So: save budget and concentrate on existing smaller, more easy to produce and less costly designs of ships, which are more flexible and pack more firepower combined.
 
South Dakota engines, 135K SHP, push a 35K ton hull 27 knots, Iowa engines 150K SHPpush 45K ton hull 33 knotss... put 9 x 18 " guns on Iowa hull, with 135SHP. Engines, I doubt you could get above 22 knots. Which means Yamato is 3 knots+ faster. Imo not a good design
AFAIK the Iowa got 27 knots on half power, they needed the full 212k SHP to get to 33 knots, Iowa was more hydrodynamic than SoDak so got better results from less HP despite being bigger

To the question the BB 65A design study which led to the Montana started as a 27knot 45k ton Iowa design with SoDak Machinery, 4x3 16" guns, dropping a turret would save enough weight to change to 3x3 18"
 
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