Alternate warships of nations

[RamscoopRaider]

could a graf zeppelin like cv (a ship with similar specs) be built by germany after a hypothetical victory in ww1, either from the keel up or by converting a battle cruiser hull in the early 1920’s?

Sure, other than all the 6" guns Graf Zeppelin isn't an all that special or impressive carrier design.

Well that depends on how like Graf Zeppelin one means. She has some ultra high pressure boilers that are beyond what the early 20's can make, similarly she had a set of Voth-Schenider propellers, a 1928 invention. In general however it's the machinery that matters, GZ had a 200,000hp steam plant using 16 boilers, for an example a WWI Mackensen would have had 32 boilers to produce 90,000hp. Basically you are going to have to shave a lot of speed off compared to GZ for building a CV in 1920, I'd say at least 8 knots of speed on the same size hull

 

[Driftless]

could a graf zeppelin like cv (a ship with similar specs) be built by germany after a hypothetical victory in ww1, either from the keel up or by converting a battle cruiser hull in the early 1920’s?

Sure, other than all the 6" guns Graf Zeppelin isn't an all that special or impressive carrier design.

The second comment got me thinking - always dangerous..... Of those first generation aircraft carriers, which ones got more attributes right, and which were just dead end ideas?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The second comment got me thinking - always dangerous..... Of those first generation aircraft carriers, which ones got more attributes right, and which were just dead end ideas?

HMS Argus was essentially an Escort Carrier built 23 years early. All she was missing was an island.

 

[CV12Hornet]

The second comment got me thinking - always dangerous..... Of those first generation aircraft carriers, which ones got more attributes right, and which were just dead end ideas?

Lexington and Saratoga are pretty high up there. Fast, capacious, sturdy, the Hurricane bow was well ahead of its time.

 

[Count of Crisco]

The second comment got me thinking - always dangerous..... Of those first generation aircraft carriers, which ones got more attributes right, and which were just dead end ideas?

I think that the Lexington’s got it the most right overall. Akagi was not that far off, Glorious and Courageous were alright, Futiouswas functional, Kaga was acceptable, Eaglewas slow, Hosho and Hermes were good learning experience, Langley and Argus were very small. And Bearn existed.

 

[LostCosmonaut]

Soviet Alaskas:

Spoiler: 3x3x12in, 33 knots, 30,000 tons

Krasnaya Alaska, USSR Battlecruiser laid down 1936

Displacement:
25,652 t light; 27,035 t standard; 28,680 t normal; 29,997 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(704.28 ft / 688.98 ft) x 85.30 ft x (31.17 / 32.29 ft)
(214.66 m / 210.00 m) x 26.00 m x (9.50 / 9.84 m)

Armament:
9 - 12.01" / 305 mm 55.0 cal guns - 934.43lbs / 423.85kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1936 Model
3 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.97lbs / 32.19kg shells, 150 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1936 Model
6 x Twin mounts on side ends, majority aft
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.19lbs / 2.81kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
12 - 0.91" / 23.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.42lbs / 0.19kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 9,366 lbs / 4,248 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 459.32 ft / 140.00 m 11.29 ft / 3.44 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 180.45 ft / 55.00 m 11.29 ft / 3.44 m
49.21 ft / 15.00 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 459.32 ft / 140.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 103% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.95" / 75 mm 459.32 ft / 140.00 m 26.15 ft / 7.97 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 78.74 ft / 24.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
2nd: 4.72" / 120 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 3.15" / 80 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.94" / 100 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 9.84" / 250 mm, Aft 9.84" / 250 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 181,469 shp / 135,376 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,962 tons

Complement:
1,101 - 1,432

Cost:
£14.068 million / $56.271 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,069 tons, 7.2%
- Guns: 2,069 tons, 7.2%
Armour: 8,204 tons, 28.6%
- Belts: 2,585 tons, 9.0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,312 tons, 4.6%
- Armament: 1,323 tons, 4.6%
- Armour Deck: 2,587 tons, 9.0%
- Conning Towers: 397 tons, 1.4%
Machinery: 5,092 tons, 17.8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,163 tons, 35.4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,028 tons, 10.6%
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.4%
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 25 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,691 lbs / 15,282 Kg = 38.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a straight bulbous bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.548 / 0.553
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.08 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00%, 32.81 ft / 10.00 m, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m
- Forward deck: 30.00%, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m
- Aft deck: 35.00%, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00%, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Average freeboard: 26.64 ft / 8.12 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.3%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 185.0%
Waterplane Area: 40,939 Square feet or 3,803 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 820 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.87
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Spoiler: 2x3x12in, 31 knots, 23,000 tons

Krasnaya Arktika, USSR Battlecruiser laid down 1936

Displacement:
19,195 t light; 20,409 t standard; 21,801 t normal; 22,914 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(573.04 ft / 557.74 ft) x 75.46 ft x (29.53 / 30.78 ft)
(174.66 m / 170.00 m) x 23.00 m x (9.00 / 9.38 m)

Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm 55.0 cal guns - 934.43lbs / 423.85kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1936 Model
2 x Triple mounts on centreline, forward deck aft
1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.97lbs / 32.19kg shells, 400 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1936 Model
4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.19lbs / 2.81kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
12 - 0.91" / 23.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.42lbs / 0.19kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,254 lbs / 2,837 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.06" / 230 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 11.29 ft / 3.44 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 196.85 ft / 60.00 m 11.29 ft / 3.44 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.95" / 75 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 26.15 ft / 7.97 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 68.90 ft / 21.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
2nd: 4.72" / 120 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 3.15" / 80 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.94" / 100 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 9.84" / 250 mm, Aft 9.84" / 250 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 136,770 shp / 102,031 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,505 tons

Complement:
896 - 1,166

Cost:
£10.097 million / $40.386 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,381 tons, 6.3%
- Guns: 1,381 tons, 6.3%
Armour: 6,369 tons, 29.2%
- Belts: 1,988 tons, 9.1%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,125 tons, 5.2%
- Armament: 956 tons, 4.4%
- Armour Deck: 1,969 tons, 9.0%
- Conning Towers: 331 tons, 1.5%
Machinery: 3,838 tons, 17.6%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,482 tons, 34.3%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,606 tons, 12.0%
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.6%
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 25 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,428 lbs / 12,441 Kg = 31.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.92
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a straight bulbous bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.614 / 0.619
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.39 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00%, 32.81 ft / 10.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00%, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00%, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00%, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Average freeboard: 28.15 ft / 8.58 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 184.0%
Waterplane Area: 31,186 Square feet or 2,897 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 150 lbs/sq ft or 730 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 3.22
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Rough concept of operations is operating in the Barents/North Atlantic to "intercept" 8 inch heavy cruisers or Deutschland type ships.
(Also I don't think the Soviets technically have naval 23mm and 57mm AA at this time, presumably they developed it using the money they didn't spend trying to build a bunch of 16 inch battleships.)

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I think that the Lexington’s got it the most right overall. Akagi was not that far off, Glorious and Courageous were alright, Furious was functional, Kaga was acceptable, Eagle was slow, Hosho and Hermes were good learning experience, Langley and Argus were very small. And Bearn existed.

I think it unfair equating Langley and Argus with each other. Langley was an experimental lash up while Argus was a functional escort carrier that gave good if unglamorous service for many years in both peace and war. All in Beardmore got it right when they Built Argus in WWI as the first ship of her kind. I also wouldn't really class any of the Battlecruiser conversions as 1st generation carriers, as they were all converted after their navies had experimented with other ships. Bearn was a total waste of French resources, nothing but a vanity project.

 

[Gokbay]

Soviet Alaskas:

Spoiler: 3x3x12in, 33 knots, 30,000 tons

Krasnaya Alaska, USSR Battlecruiser laid down 1936

Displacement:
25,652 t light; 27,035 t standard; 28,680 t normal; 29,997 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(704.28 ft / 688.98 ft) x 85.30 ft x (31.17 / 32.29 ft)
(214.66 m / 210.00 m) x 26.00 m x (9.50 / 9.84 m)

Armament:
9 - 12.01" / 305 mm 55.0 cal guns - 934.43lbs / 423.85kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1936 Model
3 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.97lbs / 32.19kg shells, 150 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1936 Model
6 x Twin mounts on side ends, majority aft
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.19lbs / 2.81kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
12 - 0.91" / 23.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.42lbs / 0.19kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 9,366 lbs / 4,248 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 459.32 ft / 140.00 m 11.29 ft / 3.44 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 180.45 ft / 55.00 m 11.29 ft / 3.44 m
49.21 ft / 15.00 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 459.32 ft / 140.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 103% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.95" / 75 mm 459.32 ft / 140.00 m 26.15 ft / 7.97 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 78.74 ft / 24.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
2nd: 4.72" / 120 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 3.15" / 80 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.94" / 100 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 9.84" / 250 mm, Aft 9.84" / 250 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 181,469 shp / 135,376 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,962 tons

Complement:
1,101 - 1,432

Cost:
£14.068 million / $56.271 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,069 tons, 7.2%
- Guns: 2,069 tons, 7.2%
Armour: 8,204 tons, 28.6%
- Belts: 2,585 tons, 9.0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,312 tons, 4.6%
- Armament: 1,323 tons, 4.6%
- Armour Deck: 2,587 tons, 9.0%
- Conning Towers: 397 tons, 1.4%
Machinery: 5,092 tons, 17.8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,163 tons, 35.4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,028 tons, 10.6%
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.4%
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 25 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,691 lbs / 15,282 Kg = 38.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a straight bulbous bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.548 / 0.553
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.08 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00%, 32.81 ft / 10.00 m, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m
- Forward deck: 30.00%, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m
- Aft deck: 35.00%, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00%, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Average freeboard: 26.64 ft / 8.12 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.3%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 185.0%
Waterplane Area: 40,939 Square feet or 3,803 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 820 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.87
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Spoiler: 2x3x12in, 31 knots, 23,000 tons

Krasnaya Arktika, USSR Battlecruiser laid down 1936

Displacement:
19,195 t light; 20,409 t standard; 21,801 t normal; 22,914 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(573.04 ft / 557.74 ft) x 75.46 ft x (29.53 / 30.78 ft)
(174.66 m / 170.00 m) x 23.00 m x (9.00 / 9.38 m)

Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm 55.0 cal guns - 934.43lbs / 423.85kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1936 Model
2 x Triple mounts on centreline, forward deck aft
1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.97lbs / 32.19kg shells, 400 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1936 Model
4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.19lbs / 2.81kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
12 - 0.91" / 23.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.42lbs / 0.19kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,254 lbs / 2,837 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.06" / 230 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 11.29 ft / 3.44 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 196.85 ft / 60.00 m 11.29 ft / 3.44 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.95" / 75 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 26.15 ft / 7.97 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 68.90 ft / 21.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
2nd: 4.72" / 120 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 3.15" / 80 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.94" / 100 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 9.84" / 250 mm, Aft 9.84" / 250 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 136,770 shp / 102,031 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,505 tons

Complement:
896 - 1,166

Cost:
£10.097 million / $40.386 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,381 tons, 6.3%
- Guns: 1,381 tons, 6.3%
Armour: 6,369 tons, 29.2%
- Belts: 1,988 tons, 9.1%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,125 tons, 5.2%
- Armament: 956 tons, 4.4%
- Armour Deck: 1,969 tons, 9.0%
- Conning Towers: 331 tons, 1.5%
Machinery: 3,838 tons, 17.6%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,482 tons, 34.3%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,606 tons, 12.0%
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.6%
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 25 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,428 lbs / 12,441 Kg = 31.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.92
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a straight bulbous bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.614 / 0.619
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.39 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00%, 32.81 ft / 10.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00%, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00%, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00%, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Average freeboard: 28.15 ft / 8.58 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 184.0%
Waterplane Area: 31,186 Square feet or 2,897 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 150 lbs/sq ft or 730 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 3.22
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Rough concept of operations is operating in the Barents/North Atlantic to "intercept" 8 inch heavy cruisers or Deutschland type ships.
(Also I don't think the Soviets technically have naval 23mm and 57mm AA at this time, presumably they developed it using the money they didn't spend trying to build a bunch of 16 inch battleships.)

Well, Russians did have excellent 12" guns and the triple turrets for them already.

 

[soyuzu]

May 1916

The 28 knot Queen Elizabeth Class Battleship HMS Warspite photographed during the early stages of the Battle of Jutland during which she served as part of the 5th Battle Squadron. These 5 expensive ships rendered the Battlecruiser (and every other Battleship) obsolete. The next class of British Battleship the Revenge class was a step backwards being smaller and only able to do 25 knots (Otl Queen Elizabeth Class) but was still useful 30 years later at the end of WWII.

View attachment 789986

The OTL Engine room should had been able to get QE to 28knots, with small tube boiler, longer bow and stern, and no overweight issues.

 

[Jim Smitty]

Question, is Red November by Reed worth the read?

 

[Spencersj345.346]

just had a thought....what would the incomparable design look like if was made with 32 knots as the designed top speed vs the 35 of otl?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The OTL Engine room should had been able to get QE to 28knots, with small tube boiler, longer bow and stern, and no overweight issues.

So it's the early 1930's and the shipyards badly need some work. Time for a major rebuilding program to get as close to new ships as you can without unscrewing the nameplate and fixing it to a new ship.

 

[Count of Crisco]

Alyskan armored cruiser Legar Kamp pictured in Rio de Janerio sometime after the surrender of the city to general Herschall .

The four ships of the Legar Kamp class would form a significant component of the 1900 fleet law which called for a total of eight armored cruisers to be built from both foreign and domestic sources. Specifically four ships, the Van Heiler class, would be constructed in Alyskan yards domestically, while it was announced in 1901 that bids would be accepted for up to four armored cruisers to be ordered in a class.

With bids being accepted from British, French, Italian, Dutch, and German yards with designs ranging from five thousand tons up to fifteen thousand tons. Eventually a modification of the then current German armored cruisers of the Roon class was selected and a contract for four ships was signed in August of 1902.

Construction of the four members of the class would be little effected by the diplomatic row which broke out following the order of four battleships from France by Alyska, the so called Krupp affair, and all four ships would be commissioned between 1905 and 1906. With all members of the class fully commissioned and worked up by the time of the second Patagonian war breaking out.

One member of the class would be lost, the Chernyles during the conflict to Argentine cruisers in the battle of the Falkland Islands. The other three ships of the class all taking damage at various points throughout the war, but surviving to see the the end of the war, all three being present at Monte Allegra to accept the surrender of the Brazilian fleet. Or what was left of it.

After the war all three ships would receive substantial refits, with new fire control directors, new secondary guns, improved elevation of the main guns, and alterations to the ships boilers to permit six of them to semi-oil firing. As a result all ships would have a slightly increased speed varying from a quarter to a half knot.

When the First World War broke out the ships would dispersed throughout the Pacific with Legar Kamp being placed on high alert to guard against British and German forces out in the area, being recalled upon Japan’s entry into the war. The ships would remain in the Pacific even after the entry of the kingdom into the war on the side of the Entente in late 1916. Post war all three ships would be retained for a brief period, but would be scrapped in the late 1920s under the terms of the Washington naval treaty.

 

[LostCosmonaut]

Another pair of random designs:

Swedish 13.5 inch armed coastal defense ship from the late 1930s, presumably the Soviets are more aggressive, retain more of the Russian fleet, and/or have a larger building program, so the Swedes get the British to sell them old 13.5 inch guns that they put into a new ship.

Spoiler: HSwMS Odin, 3x2x13.5 in, 24 kt, 15,500 tons

Odin, Sweden Coastal Defense Ship laid down 1935

Displacement:
13,826 t light; 14,841 t standard; 15,244 t normal; 15,566 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(475.72 ft / 475.72 ft) x 83.66 ft x (19.69 / 20.04 ft)
(145.00 m / 145.00 m) x 25.50 m x (6.00 / 6.11 m)

Armament:
6 - 13.50" / 343 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1,240.68lbs / 562.76kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1935 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
10 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 250 per gun
Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1935 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft deck forward
1 raised mount
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 2.14lbs / 0.97kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1935 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1935 Model
7 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
1 x Single mount on sides, forward deck centre
Weight of broadside 8,037 lbs / 3,645 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 278.87 ft / 85.00 m 9.22 ft / 2.81 m
Ends: 1.46" / 37 mm 164.04 ft / 50.00 m 9.22 ft / 2.81 m
32.81 ft / 10.00 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 1.46" / 37 mm 278.87 ft / 85.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 90% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.46" / 37 mm 295.28 ft / 90.00 m 15.29 ft / 4.66 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 72.18 ft / 22.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 2.99" / 76 mm
2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm 2.48" / 63 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.47" / 12 mm - -
4th: 0.47" / 12 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.94" / 100 mm
Forecastle: 1.46" / 37 mm Quarter deck: 1.46" / 37 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 44,854 shp / 33,461 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 3,500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 726 tons

Complement:
685 - 891

Cost:
£7.224 million / $28.894 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,442 tons, 9.5%
- Guns: 1,442 tons, 9.5%
Armour: 4,924 tons, 32.3%
- Belts: 1,635 tons, 10.7%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 243 tons, 1.6%
- Armament: 907 tons, 6.0%
- Armour Deck: 1,982 tons, 13.0%
- Conning Towers: 156 tons, 1.0%
Machinery: 1,274 tons, 8.4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,186 tons, 40.6%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,417 tons, 9.3%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,614 lbs / 11,618 Kg = 20.8 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 14.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a straight bulbous bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.681 / 0.683
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.69 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 19.33%, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00%, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Aft deck: 31.34%, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Quarter deck: 19.33%, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 20.73 ft / 6.32 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178.3%
Waterplane Area: 31,361 Square feet or 2,914 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs/sq ft or 782 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.14
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

(twice as big as Sverige and 50% more crew, so lots more money needed)

German 17cm armed light cruiser, just for fun. Gave it a long range for use as a commerce raider with/instead of Deutschland class ships, but it displaces about as much with an lighter armament so you wouldn't really save much.

Spoiler: KMS Phonix, 3x3x17cm, 33kt, 13,000 tons

Phonix, Germany Light Cruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
10,279 t light; 10,691 t standard; 12,078 t normal; 13,187 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(590.25 ft / 574.15 ft) x 62.34 ft x (19.69 / 21.17 ft)
(179.91 m / 175.00 m) x 19.00 m x (6.00 / 6.45 m)

Armament:
9 - 6.69" / 170 mm 55.0 cal guns - 161.82lbs / 73.40kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1937 Model
2 x Triple mounts on centreline, forward deck aft
1 raised mount - superfiring
1 x Triple mount on centreline, aft deck forward
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm 55.0 cal guns - 38.14lbs / 17.30kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1937 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 1.72lbs / 0.78kg shells, 600 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1937 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,782 lbs / 808 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 1.158 t each, 9.266 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
2nd Torpedoes
8 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 1.158 t each, 9.266 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted reloads

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 426.51 ft / 130.00 m 9.22 ft / 2.81 m
Ends: 0.59" / 15 mm 147.64 ft / 45.00 m 9.22 ft / 2.81 m
Upper: 0.59" / 15 mm 426.51 ft / 130.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 114% of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0.59" / 15 mm 426.51 ft / 130.00 m 18.08 ft / 5.51 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 52.49 ft / 16.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.04" / 128 mm 2.95" / 75 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.47" / 12 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 0.59" / 15 mm Quarter deck: 0.59" / 15 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 116,385 shp / 86,824 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,496 tons

Complement:
575 - 748

Cost:
£5.548 million / $22.190 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 528 tons, 4.4%
- Guns: 498 tons, 4.1%
- Weapons: 30 tons, 0.2%
Armour: 2,067 tons, 17.1%
- Belts: 584 tons, 4.8%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 168 tons, 1.4%
- Armament: 345 tons, 2.9%
- Armour Deck: 836 tons, 6.9%
- Conning Towers: 134 tons, 1.1%
Machinery: 3,226 tons, 26.7%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,333 tons, 35.9%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,799 tons, 14.9%
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 1.0%
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 25 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14,995 lbs / 6,802 Kg = 100.0 x 6.7 " / 170 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 14.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a straight bulbous bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.609
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.21 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.96 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00%, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forward deck: 30.00%, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Aft deck: 35.00%, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00%, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Average freeboard: 23.23 ft / 7.08 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 121.9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 192.1%
Waterplane Area: 26,176 Square feet or 2,432 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 519 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.84
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

 

[kaijudirector]

Yamato-class (Design A-140F7)
This was the final revision to what would become the Yamato class. Twelve of the new 3.9-inch Type 98 guns in twin turrets replaced the projected six twin 5-inch Type 89 guns of the A-140F6 design. The four triple 6.1-inch guns were no longer deemed necessary, as it was decided that the multitude of new Type 98 guns would be sufficient in fending off lighter surface ships. The only significant weapon refits the Yamato and Musashi would receive came in the form increasing numbers of the much-maligned Type 96 anti-aircraft machine guns. By the war's end, the Yamatos had approximately 165 triple-mounted guns onboard.

NOTE:
Butterflies meant that the Shinano was simply not built and that by 1944, both Yamatos had received the Yamato '45 AAA suite.

This article claims that had the Shinano been made as a BB alongside the planned fourth Yamato, they would have eschewed the Type 89s altogether for the Type 98.

I also have a "Super Duper Yamato" design idea but I fear this may be too ASBish. I think I'm stretching the limits of probability as is, anyhow.

 

[Monk78]

HMAS Melbourne (R21) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Was sold in the mid 80s to China for scrap
Can the Chinese navy salvage the ship and redeploy it as a carrier ?
Will it be able to handle j-6 fighters ? Or just helos

 

[Ash's Boomstick]

HMAS Melbourne (R21) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Was sold in the mid 80s to China for scrap
Can the Chinese navy salvage the ship and redeploy it as a carrier ?
Will it be able to handle j-6 fighters ? Or just helos

At almost 40 years old and pretty well worn, would it be worth it?

 

[Monk78]

At almost 40 years old and pretty well worn, would it be worth it?

Prestige
And it will probably just do some showing the flag trips
Not a part of any SAG

 

[Monk78]

Can soviet navy get 4 relatively modern major battleships of Italian navy after ww2 ?
Maybe form nucleus of a post war fleet

 

[Hammerbolt]

Can soviet navy get 4 relatively modern major battleships of Italian navy after ww2 ?
Maybe form nucleus of a post war fleet

The italian navy didn't have 4 modern BBs by 1945. They only built 4 post WWI, the Littorios (and the 4th was never completed), and one was sunk in 1943. The rest that fought in WWII were upgraded WWI ships. So at most you can try to convince the allies to give the Littorio/Italy (heavily damaged) and the Vittorio Veneto to the USSR, an dthat gives them 2 modern BBs. But considering the USSR's shortage of support infrastructure, not to mention lack of naval escorts, I'm not sure what good this would be.