Alternate warships of nations

[JudgeKing]

If 1915 was delayed effects on major nations battleships.

Britain
Probably gets the sixth QE, Agincourt complete in whatever form the admiralty intended, I personally enjoy the idea she was armed with 18in guns. They also probably get Renown and Repulse complete as R class battleships. A class of battlecruisers may also get laid down as counterparts to the QE and R class ships, like Hood but a bit earlier.

Germany
Had already given up the race with the UK and begun drawing off its construction. All four Bayerns are probably in an advanced stage of completion. The Mackensens are also probably all building still. With follow on ships under development.

USA
I dont think their production would change all that much.

Japan
Also probably wont change all that much honestly. Like the US their production doesnt seem affected by the war.

France
Normandies are probably farther along, the Lyon class is also probably either laid down or in advanced states of design, a battlecruiser design may also be well along in development.

Italy
The FCs (cant spell) are probably far along. Not sure how serious the Italians were about follow on designs.

Austro-Hungary
Problems with their Hungarian yards are probably well along in getting fixed. So the Erzats Monarch is probably getting laid down or ready to be ordered.

Did I miss any?

Brazil has the Riachuelo under construction when WW1 kicks off. The Riachuelo probably gets seized by the British.
Chile more than likely gets its Almirante Latorre-class battleships.
The Ottoman Empire gets the Sultan Osman-ı Evvel and Resadiye while the Fatih Sultan Mehmed probably gets seized when WW1 begins.
For Russia, an extra year would see the various battleships and battlecruisers they had under construction be much further along.

 

[Count of Crisco]

Brazil has the Riachuelo under construction when WW1 kicks off. The Riachuelo probably gets seized by the British.
Chile more than likely gets its Almirante Latorre-class battleships.
The Ottoman Empire gets the Sultan Osman-ı Evvel and Resadiye while the Fatih Sultan Mehmed probably gets seized when WW1 begins.
For Russia, an extra year would see the various battleships and battlecruisers they had under construction be much further along.

Ahh crud! I totally forgot the Russians! Which is odd because I love the Russian navies battleships.

 

[JudgeKing]

Ahh crud! I totally forgot the Russians! Which is odd because I love the Russian navies battleships.

The Greeks will almost certainly get the Salamis though I doubt they'll get the Vasilefs Konstantinos during the war.

 

[McPherson]

If 1915 was delayed effects on major nations battleships.

Britain
Probably gets the sixth QE, Agincourt complete in whatever form the admiralty intended, I personally enjoy the idea she was armed with 18in guns. They also probably get Renown and Repulse complete as R class battleships. A class of battlecruisers may also get laid down as counterparts to the QE and R class ships, like Hood but a bit earlier.

1. That QE would be finished, but the backing turbines would still be fouled up as in the rest of the class.
2. Agincourt winds up in Turkey as the Sultan Osman I, a namesake, who was as crappy as it was.

Germany
Had already given up the race with the UK and begun drawing off its construction. All four Bayerns are probably in an advanced stage of completion. The Mackensens are also probably all building still. With follow on ships under development.

3. Probably thinking through the "dead angle of a dead sea" bit after Wegener reams Tirpitz a new one.
4. Bayerns get oil boosted coal fired boilers and better screws so they can actually get as far as Narvik and return home.
5. Mackensens grow ice breaker bows and German admirals take Norwegian Lessons.
6. Someone German remembers Simon Lake works on snorts and learns to speak New Jersey... "Fergit about it!"

USA
I don't think their production would change all that much.

7. See 6.
8. Josephus Daniels gets drunk and falls down the steps of the Naval Observatory. (If possible, he was an even bigger racist bastard than Woodrow Wilson.)
9. Somebody decides aircraft carriers are a very good idea after getting seasick on a battleship and the Lexingtons (all ten of them) start off life properly as aircraft carriers.

Japan
Also probably wont change all that much honestly. Like the US their production doesnt seem affected by the war.

10. Amagi, and her three sisters, will be launched as a battlecruiser and will form a Kongo Line. (See what I did there?)

France
Normandies are probably farther along, the Lyon class is also probably either laid down or in advanced states of design, a battlecruiser design may also be well along in development.

11. More slow Bearns. (See what I did there?)

Italy
The FCs (cant spell) are probably far along. Not sure how serious the Italians were about follow on designs.

12. Francesco Carraciollis, all four of them, will be confusedly called Macaronis by Royal Navy admirals who will question why Italians are building navi da sbarco per aerei a ponte piatto. (flattops.)

Austro-Hungary
Problems with their Hungarian yards are probably well along in getting fixed. So the Erzats Monarch is probably getting laid down or ready to be ordered.

13. As a sík fedélzeten repülő hajók. See 12 for the translation.

Did I miss any?

14. ... body? You missed Woodrow Wilson, as Josephus Daniels racist drinking buddy. They were found together at the bottom of the steps to the Naval Observatory. Nearby was an unnamed Assistant Secretary of the Navy who will come to prominence later on in American history. He is busy arranging the accident scene to pass muster.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

If 1915 was delayed effects on major nations battleships.

Britain
Probably gets the sixth QE, Agincourt complete in whatever form the admiralty intended, I personally enjoy the idea she was armed with 18in guns. They also probably get Renown and Repulse complete as R class battleships. A class of battlecruisers may also get laid down as counterparts to the QE and R class ships, like Hood but a bit earlier.

While the question was about battleships a delayed start to WWI by a year will also affect the new field of naval aviation.

RMS Campania will have been scrapped so the Grand Fleet is without a seaplane carrier that can keep up with it. (When the engines can be made to work) The RNAS is now fully separate from the RFC but as far as ships they only have the Ark Royal to experiment with until the Manx Steamers and cross channel packets are requisitioned and converted and even then none can keep up with the battle line. The Italian liner converted to HMS Argus and her sister ship are further along and are more likely to be completed as troopships or AMC's. On the other hand the RNAS has had an extra year to sort out what it wants so MAY order something purpose built rather than converted. The RN will still be very twitchy about the German Zeppelins and will want some sort of air cover as a deterrent. You are likely to see flying off platforms on the Battleships turrets by the outbreak of war and some thought given to anti aircraft guns.

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

1. That QE would be finished, but the backing turbines would still be fouled up as in the rest of the class.
2. Agincourt winds up in Turkey as the Sultan Osman I, a namesake, who was as crappy as it was.

3. Probably thinking through the "dead angle of a dead sea" bit after Wegener reams Tirpitz a new one.
4. Bayerns get oil boosted coal fired boilers and better screws so they can actually get as far as Narvik and return home.
5. Mackensens grow ice breaker bows and German admirals take Norwegian Lessons.
6. Someone German remembers Simon Lake works on snorts and learns to speak New Jersey... "Fergit about it!"

7. See 6.
8. Josephus Daniels gets drunk and falls down the steps of the Naval Observatory. (If possible, he was an even bigger racist bastard than Woodrow Wilson.)
9. Somebody decides aircraft carriers are a very good idea after getting seasick on a battleship and the Lexingtons (all ten of them) start off life properly as aircraft carriers.

10. Amagi, and her three sisters, will be launched as a battlecruiser and will form a Kongo Line. (See what I did there?)

11. More slow Bearns. (See what I did there?)

12. Francesco Carraciollis, all four of them, will be confusedly called Macaronis by Royal Navy admirals who will question why Italians are building navi da sbarco per aerei a ponte piatto. (flattops.)

13. As a sík fedélzeten repülő hajók. See 12 for the translation.

14. ... body? You missed Woodrow Wilson, as Josephus Daniels racist drinking buddy. They were found together at the bottom of the steps to the Naval Observatory. Nearby was an unnamed Assistant Secretary of the Navy who will come to prominence later on in American history. He is busy arranging the accident scene to pass muster.

You're really good at snarks you know that?

Would Italy and A-H really be building flattops at this time though?

 

[McPherson]

You're really good at snarks you know that?

It keeps history in perspective.

Would Italy and A-H really be building flattops at this time though?

Better than the nonsense they did?

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

Better than the nonsense they did?

On one hand, true...on the other...do they even have aircraft for their "Flugzeuge mit flachem Deck, die Schiffe landen?"

 

[McPherson]

On one hand, true...on the other...do they even have aircraft for their "Flugzeuge mit flachem Deck, die Schiffe landen?"

Italy

Ansaldo A.1 Balilla (Hunter) Single-Seat, Single-Engine Biplane Fighter Aircraft Specifications and Pictures

Page details technical specifications, development, and operational history of the Ansaldo A.1 Balilla (Hunter) Single-Seat, Single-Engine Biplane Fighter Aircraft including pictures.

www.militaryfactory.com

Macchi M.5 Seaplane Biplane Fighter Aircraft Specifications and Pictures

Page details technical specifications, development, and operational history of the Macchi M.5 Seaplane Biplane Fighter Aircraft including pictures.

www.militaryfactory.com

Macchi M.7 Flying Boat Fighter / Pilot Trainer Biplane Aircraft Specifications and Pictures

Page details technical specifications, development, and operational history of the Macchi M.7 Flying Boat Fighter / Pilot Trainer Biplane Aircraft including pictures.

www.militaryfactory.com

Austria-Hungary

Phonix D (Series) Biplane Fighter Aircraft Specifications and Pictures

Page details technical specifications, development, and operational history of the Phonix D (Series) Biplane Fighter Aircraft including pictures.

www.militaryfactory.com

Aviatik D.I (Berg D.I) Biplane Fighter Specifications and Pictures

Page details technical specifications, development, and operational history of the Aviatik D.I (Berg D.I) Biplane Fighter including pictures.

www.militaryfactory.com

Hansa-Brandenburg C.I (Type LDD) Reconnaissance Biplane Fighter Specifications and Pictures

Page details technical specifications, development, and operational history of the Hansa-Brandenburg C.I (Type LDD) Reconnaissance Biplane Fighter including pictures.

www.militaryfactory.com

Try "flaches Luftfahrtschiff" or "schwimmender Fliegender Zirkus" for a "German aircraft carrier".

 

[perfectgeneral]

That G-3 aircraft carrier:

G3 Indefatigable

 

[edgeworthy]

That G-3 aircraft carrier:

G3 Indefatigable

The best I could do with a G3 Carrier conversion on Springsharp was this ...

G3 Conversion, Royal Navy Aircraft Carrier laid down 1922

Displacement:
30,716 t light; 31,654 t standard; 34,158 t normal; 36,161 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(856.00 ft / 856.00 ft) x 106.00 ft x (36.00 / 37.25 ft)
(260.91 m / 260.91 m) x 32.31 m x (10.97 / 11.36 m)

Armament:
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1922 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 - 4.70" / 119 mm 40.0 cal guns - 49.76lbs / 22.57kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
40 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 39.0 cal guns - 1.85lbs / 0.84kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
10 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,101 lbs / 953 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 479.36 ft / 146.11 m 14.35 ft / 4.37 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.00" / 51 mm 479.36 ft / 146.11 m 19.84 ft / 6.05 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 86.00 ft / 26.21 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 141,073 shp / 105,241 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,507 tons

Complement:
1,256 - 1,633

Cost:
£5.254 million / $21.015 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 462 tons, 1.4 %
- Guns: 462 tons, 1.4 %
Armour: 9,529 tons, 27.9 %
- Belts: 2,660 tons, 7.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 704 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 82 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 6,082 tons, 17.8 %
Machinery: 4,785 tons, 14.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,756 tons, 31.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,443 tons, 10.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 5,184 tons, 15.2 %
- Hull below water: 5,184 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
68,664 lbs / 31,146 Kg = 635.8 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 9.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.96
Metacentric height 15.9 ft / 4.9 m
Roll period: 11.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 31 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.366 / 0.374
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.08 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.10 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 19
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 22.00 %, 32.18 ft / 9.81 m, 20.48 ft / 6.24 m
- Forward deck: 44.70 %, 20.48 ft / 6.24 m, 20.48 ft / 6.24 m
- Aft deck: 11.30 %, 20.48 ft / 6.24 m, 20.48 ft / 6.24 m
- Quarter deck: 22.00 %, 20.48 ft / 6.24 m, 20.48 ft / 6.24 m
- Average freeboard: 21.51 ft / 6.56 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 173.7 %
Waterplane Area: 55,913 Square feet or 5,194 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 131 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 138 lbs/sq ft or 675 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.22
- Overall: 1.00

Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

It has an Aircraft Capacity of 72

 

[ArtosStark]

The best I could do with a G3 Carrier conversion on Springsharp was this ...

Nice. To be honest I was never sure if it would be possible to get a G3 Aircraft Carrier down below the 33,000 ton limit of the WNT.

 

[CV(N)-6]

Nice. To be honest I was never sure if it would be possible to get a G3 Aircraft Carrier down below the 33,000 ton limit of the WNT.

Could cheat like the USN with the Lexingtons and get 36,000t with bulges and anti-aircraft measures.

 

[ArtosStark]

Could cheat like the USN with the Lexingtons and get 36,000t with bulges and anti-aircraft measures.

They could. But they are unlikely to. At this stage the political scrutiny of such new ships would be extreme, and the British were very concerned about staying in the lines (at least where people were likely to see them). They felt they had more to lose by cheating than by keeping to the limits.

 

[CV(N)-6]

They could. But they are unlikely to. At this stage the political scrutiny of such new ships would be extreme, and the British were very concerned about staying in the lines (at least where people were likely to see them). They felt they had more to lose by cheating than by keeping to the limits.

If they're claiming that the G3's count as hulls that can be converted they're already bending the rules a lot more than OTL so they might be more willing to do that but generally you've got a point.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

If they're claiming that the G3's count as hulls that can be converted they're already bending the rules a lot more than OTL so they might be more willing to do that but generally you've got a point.

Honest gov it's a conversion, they'd already been laid down before the treaty see. (So what if it's only a couple of dozen plates on the slipway)

 

[ArtosStark]

If they're claiming that the G3's count as hulls that can be converted they're already bending the rules a lot more than OTL so they might be more willing to do that but generally you've got a point.

True, but they had largely seemed to get away with that at Washington. They had actually managed to secure support from the conference (IE support from Japan and a promise to put up with it from the US) to allow the G3's as BB's in the treaty! So since the con had already been largely successful, I think they are more likely to go for it than they would be to push it further and cheat on the tonnage.

 

[McPherson]

The best I could do with a G3 Carrier conversion on Springsharp was this ...

1. The block coefficient is wrong for an aircraft carrier.
2. Armored deck is wasted tonnage.
3. AAA should be at the four corner quadrants and NOT evenly distributed.
4. 6/45s not distributed properly.
5. Belt armor too thick.
6. torpedo bulkhead inadequate.
7. Void space for aircraft above and in hull @ 100 tonnes per aircraft + 10% is 72 planes x 100 tonnes =7,200 tonnes + 720 tonnes wastage space, thus round up to 7.500 tonnes; where is that void space listed in the spring sharp?
8. 10 x 2 quad mounts pom poms = 20 x 4 barrels = 80 barrels. Not in 1922 would that happen and that is a notation error as well.

 

[jsb]

My guess based on the % laydown on the G-3s when cancelled and British stowage and hanger practices, we should see about 65 birds.

Depending on if it's a G3 keel plate or a full hull, I think it might be significantly higher? A fully cut down treaty limited "g3" "redesigned" for 33,000t would be less but would also be a new CV from the keel up.

We are talking 53,000t v 44,000t deep load v the Lex BC, they are 6m shorter but that mostly the transom? A G3 could easily have a full double-deck hangar?

The LLC conversions got 48 on 27,000t per ton that would give G3 hulls 94 aircraft?

 

[McPherson]

Depending on if it's a G3 keel plate or a full hull, I think it might be significantly higher? A fully cut down treaty limited "g3" "redesigned" for 33,000t would be less but would also be a new CV from the keel up.

We are talking 53,000t v 44,000t deep load v the Lex BC, they are 6m shorter but that mostly the transom? A G3 could easily have a full double-deck hangar?

The LLC conversions got 48 on 27,000t per ton that would give G3 hulls 94 aircraft?

1. The block coefficient is wrong for an aircraft carrier.
2. Armored deck is wasted tonnage.
3. AAA should be at the four corner quadrants and NOT evenly distributed.
4. 6/45s not distributed properly.
5. Belt armor too thick.
6. torpedo bulkhead inadequate.
7. Void space for aircraft above and in hull @ 100 tonnes per aircraft + 10% is 72 planes x 100 tonnes =7,200 tonnes + 720 tonnes wastage space, thus round up to 7.500 tonnes; where is that void space listed in the spring sharp?
8. 10 x 2 quad mounts pom poms = 20 x 4 barrels = 80 barrels. Not in 1922 would that happen and that is a notation error as well.

(^^^) Springsharp is clumsy with aircraft carriers, but it can get you in the ballpark within 10% of RTL expected values.