It's a flatpack kit, made in Britain and put together in Egypt to support Kitchener in the Sudan.
Yep, Ikea has nothing on 19th century British shipbuilders.
She still survives as well.
She still survives as well.
I like how despite the superstructure being metal boxes the bow has ornamentation.
Turn of the Century was wild.
Well you need a bit of style while putting the natives in their place of course....
I like the lovely awning over the turret. I imagine it having a stunning floral pattern to compliment the scrambling on the bow
McPherson
Banned
Of aircraft carriers and things about them.
The Colossi were second class "fleets" with the same exact smallitude and inhability problems as the Independence class. Rushed construction always throws non-essentials as survivability and crew comfort and efficient ergo out the design matrix choices in favor of get it done fast.
b. Independences are "aviation ships".
Too slow, too short, not enough av-gas bunkerage, and no catapult.How about the conversion of the German Liner Scharnhorst into the Japanese Escort Carrier Shin'yo. Perhaps after the liner is trapped in Japan in 1939 the Germans have the Japanese convert her for them and when a crew is sent through the SU and trained up she goes out into the Pacific as a raider.
Japanese aircraft carrier Shin'yō - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
View attachment 658867
As will be developed, the British designed a ship that carried aircraft to merchant ship standards, while the Americans kludged together an ad-hoc fast flattop to get floating runways that could pace Japanese capital flattops out there when they needed them.
Colossus Class? Might have been as survivable as a Bogue Class. A lot depends on the damage control layout in general (NTG)and crew training per ship. "Context". Zuikaku folded up like a cheap bwhore when hit. Shōkaku had a ship's culture, tradition and a stout crew. She was a tough old ship with that tough old crew. Hence "context".
I'll take a trained willing to die for the ship crew over both
That was a misuse of the tool. Not the ship's fault. Leary's.
4/5 of a Yorktown with a fool in command.
Exactly.
Originally, I think the idea was to cram them full of fighters and let the Essexes be the strikers, but that idea was nixed when the fighter directors installed were botched. See next.
The Colossi were second class "fleets" with the same exact smallitude and inhability problems as the Independence class. Rushed construction always throws non-essentials as survivability and crew comfort and efficient ergo out the design matrix choices in favor of get it done fast.
I think of them as what an elongated Chenango would have been.
Not even the navies who used them knew how they would use them. The British wound up using the Colossi as "fleets" while the Independences ended ip as the centers of postwar ASW hunter killer groups or amphib vertical operations ships.
Especially with Halsey and his cast of like minded characters sinking or wrecking the Yorktowns (and Wasp) )faster than these could be replaced.
It sort of worked.
The A-bomb was not necessary. The Russians would have mucked things up all by themselves.
a. Colossi are slow "medium carriers".Sure. As I said: "It's all a question of what each Navy wanted out of these carriers."
And because what each navy wanted was considerably different, their definitions of "light carrier" came to be quite different, too.
What we end up with as a result is a ship type that's even more complicated and varied than "battlecruiser."
b. Independences are "aviation ships".
Hiyo class were quite similar to the Colossi. Too slow and too lightly built. Chitose is kind of like what a proper shadow program Independence class light fleet carrier should have been. She was still overbuilt.
The British overbuilt and overestimated their ability to deliver hulls. Context. They made a guess and it was not quite accurate to needs enough,
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If you're working that gun in the heat of a desert noon you'd be very grateful for the shade.
While they never took any combat damage HMAS Melbourne proved the hard way that the 1942 design light fleet carriers wouldn't sink easily. Twice. The British Light Fleets saw a lot of hard service over the decades, proving their worth. Not bad for disposable ships only intended to last three years. They may have been built in merchant yards but they were built right.
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They were an inventive bunch in those days. You can't help but admire it.
I think it's a bit sad that we don't make the effort any longer. This is about as close as it gets now:
It does seem a little lacking somehow compared to previous generations efforts.They were an inventive bunch in those days. You can't help but admire it.
I think it's a bit sad that we don't make the effort any longer. This is about as close as it gets now:
Well, at that stage, the perfect could not be allowed to be the enemy of the good . . . er, the good enough.
The idea of a fighter-only CVL-22 was not a bad idea - a lot of the space and storage problems are eased if you aren't having to store torpedos and bombs. But as Jon Parshall likes to say, the USN was writing the book on naval air warfare as it went, and new technology was constantly forcing revisions of the book.
I was just reading that Churchill, during his stay at the White House over Christmas 1941, had urged Roosvelt (among his mountain of other recommendations) to "improvise aircraft carriers on as large a scale as possible," as quickly as could be managed. I am not aware that it is recorded how FDR reacted to that, but we already know he had been thinking along those lines. Churchill may not have known about Halsey, but he had a pretty good sense of how quickly combat could attrit ships and men. But it is easier to see how the mindset was rapidly building that got us the Independences and the Casablancas - both initiated over significant reluctance in the Navy Department.
Ours is a graceless utilitarian age. I guess you take what you can get.
Trying Springsharp for the hell of it, here is a torpedo cruiser for the Republic of Zinsham, an ATL Chinese postcolonial nation located in northern California and northern Nevada with a moderately developed economy and contentious relations with neighbours akin to the early 20th century Southern Cone. Non-canon for my TL A Horn of Bronze, but part of a related TL. Since I probably didn't enter things right since I'm unfamiliar with the intracacies of naval design, some of it will look weird. Note that the guns have their caliber in traditional Imperial Chinese units (cun, the Chinese inch, using the Ming/early Qing definition).
Zinshamese torpedo cruiser Hairui
Laid down: 1934
Length: 565 chi (174 meters)
Beam: 55 chi (16.94 meters)
Draft: 20.5 chi (6.31 meters)
Max speed: 34 knots
Range: 7,500 nautical miles at 13.5 knots
Complement: 639 officers and enlisted
Armament:
4x2 4.5 cun (138.6 mm) dual-purpose guns
9x2 2.5 cun (77 mm) guns
8 x 0.7 cun (21.56 mm) AA guns
8 17.5 cun (539 mm) torpedo tubes
Armour:
Main belt: 5 cun (154 mm)
Gunshields: 5 cun (154 mm)
Deck: 1.5 cun (46.2 mm)
Conning tower: 4 cun (123.2 mm)
Aircraft carried: 2 floatplanes
The Republic of Zinsham ordered the torpedo cruiser Hairui (海瑞 "Auspicious Seas") in 1934 as part of a major naval expansion owing to improving economic conditions, the ever-active naval lobby, and threats of a naval race with nearby powers in Fusania. The sole ship of its class, Hairui was built to a unique design intended for versatility although critics decried it as being unable to fulfill any mission whatsoever. Displacing just under 10,000 tons, Hairui's guns were small for a ship its size, carrying only 8 of the 4.5 cun (about 139 mm) guns normally used as secondary armament on Chinese battleships or primary armament for destroyer leaders. However, it carried 18 smaller 2.5 cun (77 mm) guns as well as 8 0.7 cun (about 21.5 mm) AA guns as secondary armament. These weapons with their high rate of fire were intended to cripple enemy cruisers as well as defeat torpedo boats, destroyers, and convoy escorts (all favoured by Zinsham's naval rivals) that the Hairui might encounter in its missions of commerce raiding or shore bombardment on the long coast of Fusania. This light armament was made up for by Hairui's 8 large torpedo tubes--the naval designers believed these would prove decisive in an ambush along the coast while also allowing Hairui to deliver the finishing blow on larger enemy ships encountered while commerce raiding.
Hairui attempted to balance armour and speed, and the ship had a max speed of 34 knots while having 5 cun (154 mm) of armour plating. Theoretically, this made the ship armoured enough to stand up to anything as large as a light cruiser, cripple it with gunfire, and finish it off with a torpedo salvo. The speed of the ship made it capable of outrunning most larger enemy warships. For scouting, Hairui carried two small floatplanes.
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Thoughts on this design? I've never used Springsharp before so I hope I've got the point across. It's intended to be a very odd ship design.
Zinshamese torpedo cruiser Hairui
Laid down: 1934
Length: 565 chi (174 meters)
Beam: 55 chi (16.94 meters)
Draft: 20.5 chi (6.31 meters)
Max speed: 34 knots
Range: 7,500 nautical miles at 13.5 knots
Complement: 639 officers and enlisted
Armament:
4x2 4.5 cun (138.6 mm) dual-purpose guns
9x2 2.5 cun (77 mm) guns
8 x 0.7 cun (21.56 mm) AA guns
8 17.5 cun (539 mm) torpedo tubes
Armour:
Main belt: 5 cun (154 mm)
Gunshields: 5 cun (154 mm)
Deck: 1.5 cun (46.2 mm)
Conning tower: 4 cun (123.2 mm)
Aircraft carried: 2 floatplanes
Hairui, Zinsham Torpedo Cruiser laid down 1934
Displacement:
8,856 t light; 9,149 t standard; 9,850 t normal; 10,411 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
571.59 ft / 564.30 ft x 55.77 ft x 20.67 ft (normal load)
174.22 m / 172.00 m x 17.00 m x 6.30 m
Armament:
8 - 5.46" / 139 mm guns (4x2 guns), 81.24lbs / 36.85kg shells, 1936 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
18 - 3.03" / 77.0 mm guns (9 mounts), 13.93lbs / 6.32kg shells, 1936 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 9 raised guns
8 - 0.85" / 21.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.31lbs / 0.14kg shells, 1936 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 903 lbs / 410 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 175
8 - 20.2" / 513.24 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.06" / 154 mm 406.82 ft / 124.00 m 8.96 ft / 2.73 m
Ends: 1.19" / 30 mm 157.48 ft / 48.00 m 8.96 ft / 2.73 m
Upper: 1.82" / 46 mm 406.82 ft / 124.00 m 8.04 ft / 2.45 m
Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.06" / 154 mm 2.43" / 62 mm 6.06" / 154 mm
- Armour deck: 1.82" / 46 mm, Conning tower: 4.85" / 123 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 95,560 shp / 71,288 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 7,500nm at 13.50 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,261 tons
Complement:
493 - 642
Cost:
£4.114 million / $16.454 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 113 tons, 1.1 %
Armour: 2,412 tons, 24.5 %
- Belts: 1,230 tons, 12.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 380 tons, 3.9 %
- Armour Deck: 755 tons, 7.7 %
- Conning Tower: 48 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,681 tons, 27.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,590 tons, 36.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 994 tons, 10.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 0.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,934 lbs / 4,506 Kg = 122.3 x 5.5 " / 139 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom sterns
Block coefficient: 0.530
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.12 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.99 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.36 ft / 0.72 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.10 ft / 9.48 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 19.88 ft / 6.06 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.88 ft / 6.06 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 19.88 ft / 6.06 m
- Stern: 23.75 ft / 7.24 m
- Average freeboard: 21.05 ft / 6.42 m
Displacement:
8,856 t light; 9,149 t standard; 9,850 t normal; 10,411 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
571.59 ft / 564.30 ft x 55.77 ft x 20.67 ft (normal load)
174.22 m / 172.00 m x 17.00 m x 6.30 m
Armament:
8 - 5.46" / 139 mm guns (4x2 guns), 81.24lbs / 36.85kg shells, 1936 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
18 - 3.03" / 77.0 mm guns (9 mounts), 13.93lbs / 6.32kg shells, 1936 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 9 raised guns
8 - 0.85" / 21.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.31lbs / 0.14kg shells, 1936 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 903 lbs / 410 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 175
8 - 20.2" / 513.24 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.06" / 154 mm 406.82 ft / 124.00 m 8.96 ft / 2.73 m
Ends: 1.19" / 30 mm 157.48 ft / 48.00 m 8.96 ft / 2.73 m
Upper: 1.82" / 46 mm 406.82 ft / 124.00 m 8.04 ft / 2.45 m
Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.06" / 154 mm 2.43" / 62 mm 6.06" / 154 mm
- Armour deck: 1.82" / 46 mm, Conning tower: 4.85" / 123 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 95,560 shp / 71,288 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 7,500nm at 13.50 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,261 tons
Complement:
493 - 642
Cost:
£4.114 million / $16.454 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 113 tons, 1.1 %
Armour: 2,412 tons, 24.5 %
- Belts: 1,230 tons, 12.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 380 tons, 3.9 %
- Armour Deck: 755 tons, 7.7 %
- Conning Tower: 48 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,681 tons, 27.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,590 tons, 36.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 994 tons, 10.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 0.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,934 lbs / 4,506 Kg = 122.3 x 5.5 " / 139 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom sterns
Block coefficient: 0.530
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.12 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.99 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.36 ft / 0.72 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.10 ft / 9.48 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 19.88 ft / 6.06 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.88 ft / 6.06 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 19.88 ft / 6.06 m
- Stern: 23.75 ft / 7.24 m
- Average freeboard: 21.05 ft / 6.42 m
The Republic of Zinsham ordered the torpedo cruiser Hairui (海瑞 "Auspicious Seas") in 1934 as part of a major naval expansion owing to improving economic conditions, the ever-active naval lobby, and threats of a naval race with nearby powers in Fusania. The sole ship of its class, Hairui was built to a unique design intended for versatility although critics decried it as being unable to fulfill any mission whatsoever. Displacing just under 10,000 tons, Hairui's guns were small for a ship its size, carrying only 8 of the 4.5 cun (about 139 mm) guns normally used as secondary armament on Chinese battleships or primary armament for destroyer leaders. However, it carried 18 smaller 2.5 cun (77 mm) guns as well as 8 0.7 cun (about 21.5 mm) AA guns as secondary armament. These weapons with their high rate of fire were intended to cripple enemy cruisers as well as defeat torpedo boats, destroyers, and convoy escorts (all favoured by Zinsham's naval rivals) that the Hairui might encounter in its missions of commerce raiding or shore bombardment on the long coast of Fusania. This light armament was made up for by Hairui's 8 large torpedo tubes--the naval designers believed these would prove decisive in an ambush along the coast while also allowing Hairui to deliver the finishing blow on larger enemy ships encountered while commerce raiding.
Hairui attempted to balance armour and speed, and the ship had a max speed of 34 knots while having 5 cun (154 mm) of armour plating. Theoretically, this made the ship armoured enough to stand up to anything as large as a light cruiser, cripple it with gunfire, and finish it off with a torpedo salvo. The speed of the ship made it capable of outrunning most larger enemy warships. For scouting, Hairui carried two small floatplanes.
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Thoughts on this design? I've never used Springsharp before so I hope I've got the point across. It's intended to be a very odd ship design.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Doesn't seem like enough torpedoes to qualify as a torpedo cruiser in the 30's, with only 8 20" models, Japanese heavy cruisers of the 30's carried 12-16 24" weapons with reloads and weren't called that, the ones that were carried 40 24" weapons. Use of submerged tubes rather than deck mounts makes it harder to aim them
Anyways you have the armor to take hits from a heavy cruiser, but the CA will have more range and thus more chances to get lucky before you reach your effective range. You have a bunch of 3" weapons that are too short ranged and weak to engage most surface targets of the era, as destroyers, cruisers and torpedo boats will attack from outside their effective range and are in the awkward size of too low ceiling to be effective against level bombers and too heavy to track dive bombers
Anyways you have the armor to take hits from a heavy cruiser, but the CA will have more range and thus more chances to get lucky before you reach your effective range. You have a bunch of 3" weapons that are too short ranged and weak to engage most surface targets of the era, as destroyers, cruisers and torpedo boats will attack from outside their effective range and are in the awkward size of too low ceiling to be effective against level bombers and too heavy to track dive bombers
February 1890
After a few minutes a relieved smile crossed his bearded face and the First Lord sat back.
"So, the Russians pilfered the Italia design? Well, Well. I see we have little to worry about in a fight." The First Lord spoke.
McPherson
Banned
Thoughts on the design.
Armament is interesting. 4 x 2 each 5.5 inch, 14 cm/45 is not going to be any good against opposing light cruisers. 7 inch 18 cm / 60 might be.
While the 3 inch, 7.7 cm / 45 might be a thing for WWI, it would not be effective as a secondary in the time period set. Try for a 3.9 inch, 10.0 cm semi-auto
The need for a mid to low altitude AAA gun is not met. A 1.5 inch 3.7 cm /60 would be a good choice.
A 48 cm torpedo is going to be outranged and outbanged. Try for a 21 inch, 53 cm 12.5 caliber weapon and match the British Mark VIII in performance characteristics.
There is a difference in design purpose here: The CVE in the IJN was always a conversion of an existing vessel, either commandeered by the navy from a private owner, of converted while under construction. The USN and Royal Navy CVE's too was based on an existing commercial design, though mostly converted while the vessels were still to be started in construction, with a few exceptions. So the CVE type in all cases was basically an addapted Merchant design modified for military purpose.
The CVL type differed much as all were more or less purposely designed and constructed warships, not merchant ships, even though the British CVL was build in commercial shipyards, rather than purposely build Naval Yards, mainly for logistical reasons. The British CVL type was therefor build to merchantship standards and lacked Naval grade high tech things like propulsion, equipment and some other details, though the design as such was durable enough and relatively cheap to produce, compared to a full bread CV of the contemporary Illustious and Indefatigable classes. (Primarily due to the absence of the expensive armor used in the fleetcarriers, missing in the CVL's which were unarmored.)
USN CVL's were more primitive warship conversions based on an existing cruiser design (Both Cleveland and Baltimore class hulls were used in the Independence and Saipan Classes). The cruiser hull with engines and internal layout was maintained with simply a different superstructure with hangar and flightdeck replacing the original superstructure and guns. As a cruiser hull with engines maintained the ships were fast, like all cruisers normally were, though at the consequense of a much smaller airgroup than contemporary purposely designed CV of the same weight. Only the adding of a permanent deckpark provided for a normal number of around 30 planes normally, as internally about a dozen at best could be fitted in the narrow hangar, restricted in size by the slim cruiser hull. Collosus and comparable CVL's also carried around 30 planes, though could accomodate these internally if needed as their internal hangar space had the advantage of the wider, purposely designed hullshape of the ship.
IJN CVL's were actual conversions of existing (auxiliary) warships of various types as part of the so called "Shadow program" where specially designed auxiliaries were ordered with the intention to reconstruct them into a CVL (or in some cases something else) as the need was there to do so. These ships were always intended to be converted and designed as such to allow this, though some started life as a (fast) submarine tender, Seaplane Carrier, or midget submarine mothership, or even a passengerliner (Hiyo Class). Only one other CVL was converted from a purposely designed front line warships, the Ibuki, which started her life in the yard as a heavy cruiser, but was converted on stock.