Alternate warships of nations

Peg Leg Pom

June 1940

The Italian and German navies learn the hard way that the Royal Navy Aircraft Carriers were a lot more advanced than the world thought, and why the Fleet Air Arm was part of the RAF for so long.

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Vanguard45

Vanguard45

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USS Casimir Pulaski

The US superimposing experiments with turrets coincided with developments in turbines causing the USN to appeal for new battleships. What they did not count on was a resurgence in the demand for cruisers and other fast ships and not 'Slow Imperialistic Tubs' as several Democrats called them. The Navy eventually managed to get Congress to fund a new battleship but was limited to 16,000 tons and by a demand for a fast battleship.

Named after the great cavalry general Casimir Pulaski, the 'Battlecruiser' design was very lightly armored even for that era and her size (just a 2,200 tons heavier than the USS Maryland) meant little could be expected.

However, her 25.5 knot speed and superimposing layout saving tonnage and deck space turned heads including those of the admirals of the UK and Japan, especially when the ship actually pulled off the run surprising all who present who were expecting 24 knots in 1909.

Despite these advancements, the Pulaski would be an outlier as the navy admirals were distrustful of its ability to survive anything stronger than a heavy cruiser while building stronger battleships and battlecruisers using the lessons learned.
 

Peg Leg Pom

In 1937 recognising that the number of modern Heavy Ships is inadequate for future needs the RN begins the construction of two light Battleships using the 4 turrets left over from the conversion of HMS Glorious and Courageous into aircraft carriers. These two ships are essentially better built and more heavily armoured versions of the Large Light Cruisers and enter service in 1940. Because of the shortage in armour plate the Illustrious class carriers are repeats of the Ark Royal and not equipped with armoured box hangers.

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Peg Leg Pom

1938 Devonport England

After 20 years of secret research in improving submarine technology the first of the new Amphion class advanced hunter killer submarine is launched.

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Peg Leg Pom

Count of Crisco said:
Now that would be hilarious to see roving around hunting uboats in 39-40.
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With enough money thrown at the problem in the interwar years it would be just about possible as well. The sub itself is entirely possible, the difficult part is the electronics. Think of it a building on the idea of the WWI R class hunter killers.

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Butchpfd

Vanguard45 said:
Norfolk, United States Light Heavy Cruiser laid down 1925

Displacement:
9,621 t light; 10,230 t standard; 11,951 t normal; 13,327 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
604.27 ft / 600.00 ft x 60.00 ft (Bulges 65.00 ft) x 25.00 ft (normal load)
184.18 m / 182.88 m x 18.29 m (Bulges 19.81 m) x 7.62 m

Armament:
12 - 7.44" / 189 mm guns (4x3 guns), 205.92lbs / 93.40kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 5.38" / 137 mm guns in single mounts, 77.86lbs / 35.32kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turrets
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
6 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 0.79" / 20.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.25lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,178 lbs / 1,441 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.50" / 89 mm 320.00 ft / 97.54 m 10.30 ft / 3.14 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 0.50" / 13 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 82 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.00" / 25 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 14.56 ft / 4.44 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm - 1.50" / 38 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 70,904 shp / 52,895 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,098 tons

Complement:
570 - 742

Cost:
£3.249 million / $12.996 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 397 tons, 3.3 %
Armour: 1,967 tons, 16.5 %
- Belts: 559 tons, 4.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 210 tons, 1.8 %
- Armament: 340 tons, 2.8 %
- Armour Deck: 836 tons, 7.0 %
- Conning Tower: 23 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,302 tons, 19.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,925 tons, 41.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,329 tons, 19.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,499 lbs / 6,123 Kg = 65.6 x 7.4 " / 189 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 17.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.94
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.429
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.23 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.94 ft / 8.21 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.15 ft / 6.14 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.15 ft / 5.23 m (20.15 ft / 6.14 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.15 ft / 5.53 m (17.15 ft / 5.23 m before break)
- Stern: 18.15 ft / 5.53 m
- Average freeboard: 19.42 ft / 5.92 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 134.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.8 %
Waterplane Area: 22,590 Square feet or 2,099 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 125 lbs/sq ft or 611 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


The USS Norfolk was a testbed for the navy.

In 1925, Congress officially released funds for 2 heavy cruiser designs after the Hobbs report revealed the tragic nature of the Heavy cruisers in the WNT era.

While originally the USN was going to go for a 3 X 8 inch gun design (Northampton Design) for both, Senator Douglas Renton who was a close associate to several gun manufacturers talked to then Admiral Whitby about a 12 X 7/44 inch.

Whitby was interested and set Rear Admiral Morrison to investigate this possibility.

Morrison discovered the characteristics of the new 7" 44 were impressive and the turret design was already drawn up by the design board when they dropped a bombshell.

The designer of the turret had also found a way to auto load shells.

Morrison informed his brother admirals whose shock led quickly to suspicion and they charged him with investigating the design.

Admiral Morrison was on the verge of ordering a autoloader and 7 inch turret for testing on a older vessel when rumors from Japan led to a war scare causing Congress to push the design through untested.

The Norfolk and Northampton were completed within two years with proponents of both ships crowing over every one of their strengths while downplaying weaknesses.

The navy though was not impressed with Northampton but the cheapness of the ship compared to the larger Norfolk and its tested guns and workable turrets.

The Norfolk tested well with her autoloader seeming to work well when her captain, Captain Richard Appleton requested permission to test the guns in various weathers and climes until destruction.

Admiral Whitby accepted this proposal and the Norfolk headed into the Caribbean and Pacific where a terrifying fact became obvious.

The guns autoloaders, while impressive, were not capable to taking heat and humidity without four times the matinence of a conventional gun system which would be proven when gas from the system burst through a pipe and filled the turret nearly killing all the gunners.

Appleton praised the system and its idea but demanded the autoloader be removed from the Norfolk for, in his own words to, "-the well being of every American Sailor in the service."

Senator Renton and his supporters came down on Appleton nearly sinking his career until Admiral Whitby, age 84, demanded the removal immediately and then retired leaving the unblemished Morrison as his successor.

Morrison, to keep the peace and to bring forth ideas he had, asked the company to design a autoloader for a 5" 38 caliber autoloader that could work in all weathers and climes and to continue work on the 7 inch cannon.

This quieted down the controversy, Morrison would then show the Navy he supported them by making the able Captain Appleton his aide and remove the autoloader.

The Norfolk herself would see little service in the Great Pacific War as she was ordered to perform convoy raiding in the Mediterranean after the sinking and capture of Leviathan and the George Washington.

In 1934 she received an improved autoloader variant that shockingly to all involved worked on her 7 inch guns along with her 5 inch guns. Though not as fast as hoped, the fact they worked well in weathers including arctic and summer weather with less matinence needed impressed many. By this time though the newer 8 inch cannon shells and death of Senator Renton had caused any further work to seize.

At Yap she would be part of a cruiser squadron with Northampton and her sisters where her guns proved their magic as they overwhelmed a trio of light cruisers seeking to torpedo the squadron.

Though damaged heavily, the Norfolk survived the battle with 2 battle stars for her service.
At that time the Navy would not have gone with a new gun, because Manufacturers wanted it for starters, not built by us All USN weaponry were built at the Washington Navy Yard, so patronage and cost were vital. New guns for 2 ships, new rangefinders, new mounts to be tested, range tables to be developed, supply chains to be developed. Testing would take well too much time for a 2 class ship.
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Eternity

Peg Leg Pom said:
A successful argument for building the Alaska's if that's the alternative on offer.
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I always found it rather ironic that the Alaska's were designed to take on the rumoured Japanese B64 / B65 "Super Type A Cruiser", which in turn was then actually developed to take on the Alaska's.
 
Count of Crisco

Count of Crisco

HMS Tiger.jpg


HMS Tiger is pictured in 1922 just prior to her "Sale" to the Royal Australian navy before the United Kingdom signed the 1923 Washington naval treaty which would have made such a sale impossible. Tiger, alongside the two Lion class battlecruisers which were sold to Canada at the same time, would receive modernizations in the UK before delivery to their new owners in 1924-25.

Unlike her near sisters in RCN service Tiger had a very active interwar career. Renamed Victoria the ship regularly participated in cruises with other elements of the RAN, training with the RN Indian Ocean squadron on a regular basis and often making visits to the DEI, French Indochina, American Philippines, China, and Japan. In the early thirties Australia built a small battlegroup around the ship with the purchase of four cruisers and twelve destroyers.

Victoria herself went in for an extensive refit in the UK in 1938, receiving new engines, boilers, fully converted to burn fuel oil, improved AA and secondaries, torpedo bulges, added armor, new fire directors and superstructure. The largest change in the vessels design though was the replacing of her original 13.5 inch guns with the same 14 inch guns fitted to the original four King George V class ships of the RN which were then entering service.

The work was completed in 1941 and despite RN requests to keep the ship in European waters Victoria returned home to Australia just as Japan began its offensives into southeast Asia. The RN quickly dispatched a fleet known as force Z with plans to link up with the RAN at Singapore. Composed of the battlecruiser Renown and battleship Trafalgar and carriers Furious and Inflexible with supporting units this fleet never reached Singapore as the city fell before they could reach the area. Instead the ships redirected for Australia.

Victoria met the British warships and quickly integrated herself with force Z, which was renamed the south Pacific fleet, informing the fleets admiral of the issues they had with their British issue pom-pom ammunition and providing fresh rounds (degredation of the rounds in tropical climates being something the UK based designers had apparently not considered) the ship served as flagship of the Australian squadron,

The ships finest hour came during the battles around the Dutch East Indies. Alongside the Dutch Hollandia Victoria engaged three Japanese battlecruisers in the Java sea, striking the Iwami early in the engagement and sending her to the bottom even as the Japanese found the range. The ship took numerous shell hits from the Japanese, and even a torpedo from the Karishima (the only confirmed battleship to battleship torpedo strike in history) but kept in the fight even as she lost use of all her main turrets. Her crew putting out numerous fires.

Badly damaged the ship returned to Australia and remained in port until she could be made ready to sail in late 1942 for a voyage to the United States where she was to be repaired and refit. Arriving in San Francisco in November the yard got to work on the ship, returning her to service in August of 1944 for carrier escort duty with first the US navy and later British Pacific Fleet, where she again worked with the Hollandia and Trafalgar. At wars end the ship was present in Tokyo bay for the final Japanese surrender by crown prince Akihito and the remnants of the Japanese government aboard the USS Oregon.

The ship remained in Australian service until she was decommissioned in 1956. It was initially planned to scrap her, however a campaign by former crewmembers, including former captain now senior admirals, forced the government to instead preserve her as a museum ship. Where she remains today in Sydney harbor near the opera house.
 
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