Alternate warships of nations

[Father Maryland]

I'd always assumed they got them dirt cheep. Paying full price for obsolete ships seems a poor use of a nations funds. Even by the standard of the last generation Pre Dreadnoughts they seem outdated.

Yep. Seems insane to me to. But the Greeks paid the full cost the USN spent when it bought them in the first place. I think the US used the funds to pay for two new dreadnoughts.

I guess the Missipis must have been the best they could get at the time. I also imagine that the Mississippi's were meant as full placeholders until the Salamis the dreadnought the Germans were building for Greece was finished. If the Salamis had been finished on time for the Greeks I wonder if the Greeks would have tried and sell the Mississippi somewhere else.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

Yep. Seems insane to me to. But the Greeks paid the full cost the USN spent when it bought them in the first place. I think the US used the funds to pay for two new dreadnoughts.

The third New Mexico was paid for by the sale but due to PR reasons the 2nd and 3rd New Mexicos were named Mississippi and Idaho respectively to in essence replace the names in USN service

 

[RelativeGalaxy7]

Another interesting what if, apparently Canada was offered the chance to rent/buy one or more Essex class carriers for either $1 per year or $4.4 million respectively. Alternatively, Britain offered Canada one of the Hermes class carriers instead of Bonaventure. Obviously the Canadian Carrier Arm died a horrific death IRL after they went for the cheap option of Bonaventure however, any thoughts on Canada operating Essex('s) or Hermes? Obviously there is going to be some handwaving and such but it's an funny thought.

HMCS Bonaventure alongside USS Essex in our timeline.

 

[Dorknought]

The advantages of the Mississippi and Idaho for the Greek Navy were that they were available, one was even in the Med. Churchill was appalled with Adm Kerr, the RN Officer who headed up the naval mission to Greece as he should have been able to press some Majestics onto the Greeks but Kerr was against buying the 2 US ships anyway.

The USN by 1914 would have been happy offloading the Michigans as they were regarded as 2nd rate by 1914. The USN ranked the Danton's and the Satsuma's ahead of the Michigans. Their only use was to replace the Mississippi and Idaho so that with the 6 Connecticuts they form an 8 ship battle squadron rather than lumbering the later true Dreadnoughts with 18 knot ships.

 

[Pangur]

Another interesting what if, apparently Canada was offered the chance to rent/buy one or more Essex class carriers for either $1 per year or $4.4 million respectively. Alternatively, Britain offered Canada one of the Hermes class carriers instead of Bonaventure. Obviously the Canadian Carrier Arm died a horrific death IRL after they went for the cheap option of Bonaventure however, any thoughts on Canada operating Essex('s) or Hermes? Obviously there is going to be some handwaving and such but it's an funny thought.

HMCS Bonaventure alongside USS Essex in our timeline.

Even more so if it was an Essex carrier rebuilt as an ASW carrier. That I can see happening

 

[Dorknought]

If the Canadians wanted a capital ship it would be a battlecruiser. A cruisers squadron would rings around HMCS Canada.

That said a cruiser squadron of their own might be more fitting.

A battlecruiser might be a Canada seeing major tensions with the Japanese and looking to form the nucleus of a Royal Navy Pacific Battlecruiser fleet.

For the Dominions the problems are manpower and political will.

In 1918, the Dominions were still opposed to the idea of a single Imperial Navy, Canadian PM Borden suggested on behalf of the Dominion PMs that an Admiralty advisor visit each country in turn. In September 1918 the Admiralty agreed to send a Representative as early as convenient after the wars end. This later became Jellicoe's Empire Mission in Feb 1919.

In April, from Paris, Borden asked the Admiralty if Canada could take over a battleship, cruiser and requisite destroyers and submarines.

The Admiralty was quick to agree and in May 1919 proposed:
1 BC Indomitable
3 CL Arethusa
1 DL Marksman
8 S class DD
4 L Class SS
2 H Class SL already gifted

Estimated running costs were put at £1.327m per year if these ships stayed in Canadian waters. The RN acknowledged that the RCN would be in the nature of a training squadron for some years to come. At wars end the RCN only had 62 officers - not enough to run the BC.

Asked in August if they wanted the ships the Canadians demurred pending Jellicoe's report. Jellicoe arrived in Canada in Nov 1919 and quickly noted the dissension among Canadian politicians. Even the Naval minister recognised that the current RCN was a 'pure waste of money'.

For local defence Jellicoe suggested 3 CL, 8 DD and 8 SS. If Canada wanted to co-operate in Imperial Defence then 1-2 'Fleet Units' of a BC, CV, 2CL, 6DD, 4 SS and minesweepers and support ships. Gift ships on offer from the RN had to be taken up by the end of Jan 1920. Parliament asked for an extension on 1 CL, 1 DL, 4DD, 6SS and 8PG. As no policy had been set, the pre-war policy of a training cadre was continued and only 1 CL and 2 DD were asked for. These were initially Glasgow, Talisman and Termagant but Arethusa, Patrician and Patriot were selected instead with crew requirements totaling 486.

 

[RelativeGalaxy7]

snip

Of course, political support was not found in our timeline and would need to be acquired somehow to kick start the process. A major kick to the nether regions of the Canadian psyche would be needed alongside large amounts of public support. The original May 1919 proposal was doable however, Jellicoe's Fleet Unit proposal came back around to clash with reality. Operating a pair of fleet units would essentially be impossible for Canada manpower and financially however, it was not especially wise to only have one fleet unit on one coast. The Atlantic really didn't need fleet unit protection while the Pacific did, although all of the politicians and public were on the East Coast, meaning stationing your major warships on the other coast out of the view of the public eye is an issue. Canada did have more officers at home and abroad however, it experienced a heavy brain drain as many young officers and men simply transferred to the RN to escape languishing in the hell that was the RCN.

As for Indomitable, I can't image her being valid as anything more than "babies first capital ship" for Canada, given how it would essentially be ran into the ground condition wise and even before WWI, it's dubious protection and speed would have issues against anything modern and Japanese.

 

[naraic]

As for Indomitable, I can't image her being valid as anything more than "babies first capital ship" for Canada, given how it would essentially be ran into the ground condition wise and even before WWI, it's dubious protection and speed would have issues against anything modern and Japanese.

Indomnitable would purely be a cruiser killer for hunting down raiding auxiliary, protected, light and armoured cruisers only.

She could not go near any of the Kongos or the Japanese battle line.

She would have been faster than anything the Japanese had except for the Kongos and 3 protected cruisers in 1918.

If Canada had Indomnitable on its Pacific Coast it would be hoping that the Japanese are staring down against the main British fleet based out of Singapore or Hong Kong.

In this instance I wouldn't consider Indomnitable as a capital ship. She would be operating as a cruiser killer and that distinction would need to be driven home to every one.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Indomnitable would purely be a cruiser killer for hunting down raiding auxiliary, protected, light and armoured cruisers only.

The trouble is that by 1920 the cruisers can run away from her. 25 knots just isn't fast enough for a cruiser killer.

 

[RelativeGalaxy7]

Indomnitable would purely be a cruiser killer for hunting down raiding auxiliary, protected, light and armoured cruisers only.

She could not go near any of the Kongos or the Japanese battle line.

She would have been faster than anything the Japanese had except for the Kongos and 3 protected cruisers in 1918.

If Canada had Indomnitable on its Pacific Coast it would be hoping that the Japanese are staring down against the main British fleet based out of Singapore or Hong Kong.

If Canada was seriously going to consider operating a capital ship for anything besides just being a floating training reserve for the Royal Navy, Indomitable was a poor choice. You don't purchase a full on battlecruiser (even one as run down and old as an Invincible class) to deal with such small fry as auxiliary raiders alongside protected and light cruisers. Your cruiser force and smaller forces can deal with those and as for armored cruiser, such things were a dying breed. As Pom says above, Indomitable was not fast enough to counter even the on paper cruisers that were being tossed around or built in 1919. For the 210~ more men something like Lion or Princess Royal require, you get an immensely more capable unit that is actually still included within the supply chain of the Royal Navy, given how the 12" gun ships were all scrapped while the 13.5" vessels continued to see service.

The Invincible class are glass cannons with a bit too much mileage on them to justify operating them if you actually expect to use them. Otherwise, just buy some County class cruisers.

 

[RelativeGalaxy7]

Also another interesting tidbit about possible Canadian procurements, Rear Admiral Kingsmill looked into acquiring the old predreadnought HMS Empress of India in 1910 to serve as an additional training platform for the Royal Canadian Navy. His motivations and reasoning are somewhat lost to us but the only big gun capital ship of Canada being an 1893 open barbette vessel would be rather humorous.

 

[naraic]

The trouble is that by 1920 the cruisers can run away from her. 25 knots just isn't fast enough for a cruiser killer.

While I agree in general that a County or a even a Hawkins class cruiser would fit better 25 knots is faster than all Japanese cruisers in commission bar the 4 Kongos and 3 protected cruisers in 1914.

Not sure why I'm arguing the point in favour of this one really. I guess I started with saying any battlecruiser would do better than a battleship for Canada neds. It would need a major POD for the invincibles to stay in service. I've seen a time line where Canada ended up with Indefatigable after ww1 and it made some sense. The POD was one where the dominions get 1 light capital ship in an alternate WNT.

In theory the Dominions could order a replacement ship when their ships were 20 years old.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Also another interesting tidbit about possible Canadian procurements, Rear Admiral Kingsmill looked into acquiring the old predreadnought HMS Empress of India in 1910 to serve as an additional training platform for the Royal Canadian Navy. His motivations and reasoning are somewhat lost to us but the only big gun capital ship of Canada being an 1893 open barbette vessel would be rather humorous.

Did one of his relatives own the scrapyard she's going to end up in within a year of purchase?

 

[RelativeGalaxy7]

Did one of his relatives own the scrapyard she's going to end up in within a year of purchase?

MINIMUM TIME NECESSARY FOR THE
TRAINING OF SEAMEN.
Boy in training ship .................... 2 years
Able Seaman ............................. 2 years
Seaman Gunner or Torpedo Man ......1 year
Gunlayer......................................1 year
Total ................................... 6 years
Stoker, 2nd Class, in training ship .....1 year
Stoker, 1st Class........................ 2 years
Total.................................... 3 years


Owing to the length of time which it takes to train a Seaman (as above), it is necessary that recruiting should be proceeded with as expeditiously as possible. At present recruits are trained in “NIOBE” and “RAINBOW”, Cruisers purchased from the Imperial Government for that purpose; the accommodations, however, in those Ships is limited, there being only room for approximately 250 recruits; it is therefore urgent to make arrangements for further accommodation, and this can be done either by building permanent Barracks on shore, or by having a permanent floating barracks; owing to the time which must elapse to complete a building ashore, it is advisable to adopt the latter plan, and the Admiralty are willing to provide, at breaking up price (about $160,000) the “Empress of India”, an obsolete battleship of 14,150 tons; this Ship would require an expenditure of about $80,000 to fit her for service for which she is required. This ship would have a life of 20 years at least, and, at the end of that period, her value for breaking up purposes would not have materially depreciated.

The reasoning was apparently to have additional barrack and training space for more men as Halifax's infrastructure has very poor and unsuited while also politically, it was unlikely additional shore based training resources could be scraped out of the federal funding. I suppose it makes sense in some way, although it's still hilarious.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The reasoning was apparently to have additional barrack and training space for more men as Halifax's infrastructure has very poor and unsuited while also politically, it was unlikely additional shore based training resources could be scraped out of the federal funding. I suppose it makes sense in some way, although it's still hilarious.

They'd do better with a retired liner, and if they ever needed it could use it as an A.M.C.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Another interesting what if, apparently Canada was offered the chance to rent/buy one or more Essex class carriers for either $1 per year or $4.4 million respectively. Alternatively, Britain offered Canada one of the Hermes class carriers instead of Bonaventure. Obviously the Canadian Carrier Arm died a horrific death IRL after they went for the cheap option of Bonaventure however, any thoughts on Canada operating Essex('s) or Hermes? Obviously there is going to be some handwaving and such but it's an funny thought.

HMCS Bonaventure alongside USS Essex in our timeline.

As much as the idea is interesting, Canada's defense budget could never sustain such a cost.
And changing political fortunes would also end any hopes of a carrier pretty quick.
Just take a look at what happened to the CF 105 Arrow.
New political party comes in, replaces a fighter jet who's basic airframe could still be useful today with some moldy concrete holes in the ground.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

In 1918, the Dominions were still opposed to the idea of a single Imperial Navy, Canadian PM Borden suggested on behalf of the Dominion PMs that an Admiralty advisor visit each country in turn. In September 1918 the Admiralty agreed to send a Representative as early as convenient after the wars end. This later became Jellicoe's Empire Mission in Feb 1919.

The Dominions won't accept an Imperial Navy they would have to contribute to, and also won't build navies of their own able to defend them even if offered surplus ships for next to nothing. Obviously firm believers in the Bank of Mum.

 

[Hammerbolt]

Something I've been playing around with: a fleet of coastal gunboats and defence ships, for asian countries of the late 1934-40; also suitable for the wide river estuaries and micro island-dotted bays of the area. The fleet would be composed of two main types: a heavy gunboat/destroyer, for costal patrol and escort, and a costal battleship:

Gunboat/destroyer:
2x single 5"
3x twin 37"
3x twin .50'
2x single 120mm mortars
1x twin torpedo launcher
Room for 30 troops; these troops would be landed by shipborne longboats, counting on the ship's guns and mortars for support.
Top speed 25 knots, range 1500 miles, tonnage around 1000-1200 tons

Coastal BB:
2 × twin 12" Bofors
6 x single 4"
4 x twin 37mm
3 x twin .50"
Top speed 20 knots, range 1000 miles, tonnage around 4000 tons

The gunboat is purelly my invention, whereas the BB is heavily influenced by the finish Väinämöinen class. At first I thought of the swedish Sverige-class, but the coastal and estuary waters of the target area are too shallow for that, I think. The high number of light guns is justified by the fact that all those islands and provide optimum cover for enemy light units in ambush.

 

[Count of Crisco]

HMCS Ontario pictured in 1941 during operations off the coast of Crete, the ship is likely bombarding German troops ashore.

Ordered in 1926, laid down in 1927, and commissioned into the Royal Canadian Navy in 1930 the Ontario was initially planned to have a sister of the same class, however this vessel was cancelled in 1929 and the nearly completed ship was eventually transferred to the Royal Navy as the HMS Nike. It had been planned that in Canadian service the ship would have become the HMCS Ottawa, a name given in 1937 to the Leander class cruiser ordered by the RCN.

Ontario, and the cancelled Ottawa had been a part of a large, for Canada, defense bill which was passed in 1925 aimed at making the Canadian armed forces better able to defend the nation in the event of the next war. As an effort to reform and expand the navy it was planned to purchase an older RN Town class cruiser to serve as a training ship, two heavy cruisers, fifteen modern destroyers, nine submarines, and a collection of sloops, minelayers and several squadrons of floatplanes and seaplanes to provide reconnaissance capabilities.

It quickly became apparent that the Canadian government could not afford such an ambitious naval expansion, let alone the similarly priced expansion to the army. As such cuts and cancellations would be made soon after the first ships were ordered. In the end only a single cruiser, the Ontario, was ordered. Alongside eight destroyers, three submarines, fifteen sloops and minelayers, naval aviation took far fewer hits however and soon became a source of great pride for the navy.

Ontario gave sterling service throughout the first half of the second world war. Participating in hunts for the German warships Bismarck and Graf Spee, escorting several convoys across the Atlantic, and playing a key role in the battle of Crete. Where the ship suffered major damage from Luftwaffe dive bombers, spending most of 1942 under repair. Emerging from refit at the end of the year the ship was plunged into supporting the north African campaign and later invasion of Italy.

it was during this latter operation that the ship would be lost. Taking three torpedoes from Italian torpedo bombers and breaking in half in the early hours of February 1944. Taking over six hundred men down with her. A replacement HMCS Ontario, a Minotaur class cruiser, was commissioned after WWII which served into the 1980s.

 

[Crowbar Six]

Something I've been playing around with: a fleet of coastal gunboats and defence ships, for asian countries of the late 1934-40; also suitable for the wide river estuaries and micro island-dotted bays of the area. The fleet would be composed of two main types: a heavy gunboat/destroyer, for costal patrol and escort, and a costal battleship:

Gunboat/destroyer:
2x single 5"
3x twin 37"
3x twin .50'
2x single 120mm mortars
1x twin torpedo launcher
Room for 30 troops; these troops would be landed by shipborne longboats, counting on the ship's guns and mortars for support.
Top speed 25 knots, range 1500 miles, tonnage around 1000-1200 tons

Coastal BB:
2 × twin 12" Bofors
6 x single 4"
4 x twin 37mm
3 x twin .50"
Top speed 20 knots, range 1000 miles, tonnage around 4000 tons

The gunboat is purelly my invention, whereas the BB is heavily influenced by the finish Väinämöinen class. At first I thought of the swedish Sverige-class, but the coastal and estuary waters of the target area are too shallow for that, I think. The high number of light guns is justified by the fact that all those islands and provide optimum cover for enemy light units in ambush.

You need something a bit bigger for the coastal battleship because these will be operating in coastal waters in the Indian Ocean, Indo-Chinese areas etc so better range, at least 3000 miles and bigger to better cope with better worse weather than the Baltic which is nowhere near as bad as tropical waters for sudden squalls and tropical storms.