Alternate warships of nations

To be fair....that is the cost per round established by taking the total development cost of the ammo and the limited production run for the 2 ships so far armed with the weapon system divided by the number of shells produced.

Had the full 32 ship run been produced that cost per shot figure would drastically drop to something lighter on the wallet.
Yeah, most of the cost of a ship or weapon system is in the development and testing. Once that is done, the cost drops dramatically, and you start to recoup the cost as you build progressivelly more and more units.
 
Yeah, most of the cost of a ship or weapon system is in the development and testing. Once that is done, the cost drops dramatically, and you start to recoup the cost as you build progressivelly more and more units.
True but, in this case, it's one system for one dedicated use of one allready extremely expensive class...
 
True but, in this case, it's one system for one dedicated use of one all ready extremely expensive class...
Yep. The RN forked out something silly like 1 billion GBP per Type 45 destroyer..... For 6x units. Plan was for 18 initially, then 12, then 8, then 6. Cost went up per ship as number went down. Basic economics.
 
I need to pull those out of storage again at some point :)

1: What is that 3x3 ship on the left? A Scharnhost? Another class of ship?
2: They built an entire Super Battleship/Carrier as bait? That seems like a waste of steel, engines, manpower (builders who were executed and crew) and fuel.
Not the right 'questions' really since I'd need to point out that all those ships are INSIDE another ship in that picture :) That's why the ships "at dock" all have wakes :)
(If you missed it the Japanese officer is kicking the "dock" and noting the 'deck' seems to be metal when the German officer tells him it's "ice"... So guess what "ship" they are inside :) )

Randy
 
Just an Idea I put into words:

HMS Leopard-quick summary
Laid down in 1912 and completed in December of 1915, HMS Leopard was essentially a scaled up version of her cousin, Tiger, but armed with newer model 6” guns, as well as eight 15” weapons. Leopard displaced some 29,000 tons normal, and was slightly better protected than Tiger. Completed too early for small tube boilers, she nevertheless could steam at 28 knots, as she displayed at Jutland, where her 15” shells claimed the battle cruiser Seydlitz despite her crew’s inexperience and poor shooting. Retained after the Washington Naval treaty in exchange for scrapping the battleship Benbow, she also survived the second interwar treaty, at the expense of HMS Ramilies. In September 1939, she was still recognizable as the battle cruiser from 1915. Eight 4” guns, a pair of octuple pom-poms, and a dozen .5” machine guns were the only armament changes, while newer fire control, bulges, a seaplane, and better flash protection were the only other improvements. She hunted raiders, using her top speed, now just 26.5 knots, to stay in range of the cruiser Deutschland long enough to cripple her with gunfire and close the range. The battle cruiser continued raider hunting until May, 1940, when she was attached to Force H to counter the Regia Marina, just in case. When France surrendered, Leopard joined the rest of the squadron in attacking the fleet in Mers-El Kebir, and together with Hood, forced the fleeing Strasbourg to beach herself. Leopard spent the next year and a half operating with Force H, covering Malta convoys, and once facing Italian battleships, which withdrew when she and Renown pressed them. Leopard was in dry dock when Ark Royal launched her famous attack on Bismarck, however. With the threat of Japan attacking Far Eastern colonies, she was sent with Repulse and Prince of Wales to Singapore, but lost a propeller blade shortly after departing from Ceylon and had to turn back. During this time a minor refit was given to her aging engines, as Leopard was down to 24 knots, barely battleship speed. She was rushed through the refit, and completed it in time to cover convoys withdrawing from the Far East, before joining Somerville’s fast squadron of carriers to operate against the Kido Butai, which was on its way to attack British bases in India. The carriers, now free to operate at faster due to not having to steam with old battleships, successfully launched a night attack which crippled Kaga with torpedoes, forcing the Japanese to withdraw. Leopard was sent to the Eastern Mediterranean to assist in running more convoys, before rejoining Force H to cover Operation Torch. She was then sent home to help contain the German units in Norway, which she did into 1943, however the old ship was beginning to show her age, and it was decided she was best suited for bombardment duties due to her lack of armor and deteriorating speed. She supported the Allied landings in Sicily and Italy, and was slightly damaged by a 500 pound bomb. After repairs, she escorted a carrier strike on Tirpitz, holed up in her fjord, then joined Operation Overlord, pouring shells into German positions, before being laid up in August of 1944, and decommissioned in May, 1945. The old ship was scrapped by mid-1946, having more than paid off for the effort needed to build her.

Small detail: Why still continuing Repulse and Renown, when a more capable 15 inch gunned battlecruiser though slightly slower, existed in this timeline? More likely the mentioned ship was just as the previous HMS Tiger, apart from some minor details, meaning same armament, armor and only some minor mostly internal differences. The changes mentioned in the timeline are inaccurate, as these were only possible after 1914, simply due to the fact the main guns did not exist when building started and would have meant one of the following Queen Elisabeth class ships was to be canceled due to lack of main guns, while the 6 inch guns did not change in design until after WW1 basically. ( 6" (15.2 cm) Mark XII in a turreted design from 1921. Preceding 6 inch weapons of 45 cal. were only different in small details and available in large numbers.) Last: HMS Tiger already displaced 29,000 tons, so adding protection and other weight would have increased this displacement even further.
 
Small detail: Why still continuing Repulse and Renown, when a more capable 15 inch gunned battlecruiser though slightly slower, existed in this timeline? More likely the mentioned ship was just as the previous HMS Tiger, apart from some minor details, meaning same armament, armor and only some minor mostly internal differences. The changes mentioned in the timeline are inaccurate, as these were only possible after 1914, simply due to the fact the main guns did not exist when building started and would have meant one of the following Queen Elisabeth class ships was to be canceled due to lack of main guns, while the 6 inch guns did not change in design until after WW1 basically. ( 6" (15.2 cm) Mark XII in a turreted design from 1921. Preceding 6 inch weapons of 45 cal. were only different in small details and available in large numbers.) Last: HMS Tiger already displaced 29,000 tons, so adding protection and other weight would have increased this displacement even further.
Refit and Repair were still built because Fisher is gonna Fisher and wants him some more battlecruisers. As for the changes: I rechecked Tiger's normal displacement, which my sources say is 28,500 tons, so I'll increase Leopard's displacement once I post this. Leopard is the Queen Elizabeth battlecruiser analogue, built at the same time as them, so 15" guns are available, and the 6-inch guns are the same as on the QE's(Mark XII), which were a new design, Tiger's are an older model(Mark VII).
 
Yep. The RN forked out something silly like 1 billion GBP per Type 45 destroyer..... For 6x units. Plan was for 18 initially, then 12, then 8, then 6. Cost went up per ship as number went down. Basic economics.
Your so right. The should've built at least a dozen. It looks like their selling the Type 26 Frigate to the Dominions, and building them in good numbers. That's the way they should do it, a bigger RN, and Dominion wide production. Didn't they think they'd need a few AD Destroyers to escort their new Carriers?
 
Refit and Repair were still built because Fisher is gonna Fisher and wants him some more battlecruisers. As for the changes: I rechecked Tiger's normal displacement, which my sources say is 28,500 tons, so I'll increase Leopard's displacement once I post this. Leopard is the Queen Elizabeth battlecruiser analogue, built at the same time as them, so 15" guns are available, and the 6-inch guns are the same as on the QE's(Mark XII), which were a new design, Tiger's are an older model(Mark VII).
We might be more likely to see refit and repair as an evolution of leopard in this timeline instead of the OTL 3×2 15 inch guns.

I do suspect in general that leopard would have gotten the first rebuild in the 30s (as her engine would have needed it more) and she would have been completely reengined allowing her to be faster than 26.5 knots in ww2.

I'm fairly sure a 26.5 knot battleship would not be assigned to force h as the Italians could run her down and she would not do well in the battle line against them.

By the way in Jutland why did leopard have an inexperienced crew? The QEs had good crews in Jutland so I'm not sure why Leopard would have gotten the Tiger treatment.
 
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I'm fairly sure a 26.5 knot battleship would not be assigned to force h as the Italians could run her down and she would not do well in the battle line against them.
Tbf, almost all british BBs would be run down by the italians. It was their greatest advantage...
 
Tbf, almost all british BBs would be run down by the italians. It was their greatest advantage...
But any of the battleships could stand in line and fight the Italians. Renown and Repulse and Hood could sail away from anything the Italians had at sea while any of the battleships would be at worst even money in a fight.

This isn't fishers super Tiger fast battleship design O which was abandoned on the drawing boards and only fragments of designs remain. This is a 29k tonnes battlecruiser with 15 inch guns. HMS Leopard being a battlecruiser with 15 inch guns and more or less HMS Tiger's protection would not have managed to stay in line.
 
But any of the battleships could stand in line and fight the Italians. Renown and Repulse and Hood could sail away from anything the Italians had at sea while any of the battleships would be at worst even money in a fight.
Very true. The italians did try to get some "rush in and shoot, rush out" tactics, when they thought they could catch an isolated brit, but bad luck and uterly horrible coordination with the air force ruined any chance...
 
The real question is why would the RN build the Leopard when Design Y(basically a proto Hood with two knots less of speed and 1" less armor) could be built instead.

Actually that's an interesting timeline idea. What if the last 3 Rs are ordered as Design Ys and thus are completed as such?
 
The real question is why would the RN build the Leopard when Design Y(basically a proto Hood with two knots less of speed and 1" less armor) could be built instead.

Actually that's an interesting timeline idea. What if the last 3 Rs are ordered as Design Ys and thus are completed as such?
Let us Bongo in the Kongo... Better a Kongo in the klutches than a Leopard in the limbo.



IJN Kongo Battlecruiser / Battleship Warship - Imperial Japan

BTW... Was not Sempill bad enough?
 
The real question is why would the RN build the Leopard when Design Y(basically a proto Hood with two knots less of speed and 1" less armor) could be built instead.

Actually that's an interesting timeline idea. What if the last 3 Rs are ordered as Design Ys and thus are completed as such?
Well he has the leopard as a order a long with Queen Elisabeth were the design y was produced later.

As to the design y, well if they happen to be at Jutland the Germans can be very scared.

Have you a good source on design y. The one I'm looking at is putting it at 31k tonnes ie barely bigger than Tiger and about 2/3s the displacement of Hood. I don't see it as viable.
 
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Well he has the leopard as a order a long with Queen Elisabeth were the design y was produced later.

As to the design y, well if they happen to be at Jutland the Germans can be very scared.
Plus if the RN already has a bunch of 15" armed battlecruisers either in service or almost done building it's highly likely that the RN goes for a fast battleship( ie 30ish knots with significantly better armor)version of the Admirals instead of the 32 knots battlecruiser we got in otl.
 
Plus if the RN already has a bunch of 15" armed battlecruisers either in service or almost done building it's highly likely that the RN goes for a fast battleship( ie 30ish knots with significantly better armor)version of the Admirals instead of the 32 knots battlecruiser we got in otl.
I'm fairly sure the admiral class was aiming to match the renown class with the 32 knot speed.
 
I'm fairly sure the admiral class was aiming to match the renown class with the 32 knot speed.
If Design Y and its 30 knot speed was built instead of the Renowns(via my proposed change to the timeline) then I'm pretty sure the RN won't be aiming for 32 knots with the Admirals
 
Very true. The italians did try to get some "rush in and shoot, rush out" tactics, when they thought they could catch an isolated brit, but bad luck and uterly horrible coordination with the air force ruined any chance...
The Italians engaged in a number of actions with British Battleships. Their problem was they were relying on long range shooting, sometimes over 25,000 yards. The modern Littorio Class were fine well protected ships, with good 15" guns, but they suffered from a dispersion problem, that degraded their accuracy. The older rebuilt Battleships were poorly protected, and only had 12.6" guns, but they did have 10 of them. Again they were relying on very long range shooting, and without fire control radar their chances of scoring a hit on even a Battleship sized target was very small.
 
The Italians engaged in a number of actions with British Battleships. Their problem was they were relying on long range shooting, sometimes over 25,000 yards. The modern Littorio Class were fine well protected ships, with good 15" guns, but they suffered from a dispersion problem, that degraded their accuracy. The older rebuilt Battleships were poorly protected, and only had 12.6" guns, but they did have 10 of them. Again they were relying on very long range shooting, and without fire control radar their chances of scoring a hit on even a Battleship sized target was very small.
What British BB fought Italians with 12.6” guns?
 
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