Saddly true. I'm not sure we even had the manpower to man and support such ships, plus the required escorts...
Saddly true. I'm not sure we even had the manpower to man and support such ships, plus the required escorts...
I was actually meaning things like toilets etc etc. When the UK seized HMS Agincourt in 1914, she was fitted out for Turkish service and thay had to remove all that stuff and replace with UK standard. The same would apply here. Strip the UK standard and replace with IJN standard. Sounds simple, but it can be quite challenging in detail. Toilets are the obvious example, but there will be countless minor fittings that need changing to suit the Japanese people.
The ships the Japan had bought from Great Britain previously, were they modified to a different status?
The cost of building a warship is about 20% of the lifetime operating cost. Even if buying second hand, operating that ship will be quite expensive. In the case of the Netherlands, the 1923 Fleet Bill brought down the Government, but only by one vote. The opposition was mainly cost and a reliance on the League of Nations. If the 1923 Fleet Bill had got up then the Navy that faced the IJN in 1941-42 would have been twice the size.
Yes but they wanted the best and bought from Britain, there would be some nod to the customer but it was very much 'we'll have what you have'. They were still using bridge commands in English until the late 20s early 30s.
It was reckoned that 1 year of war service counted 2 years of peace. Any ship built before the war had a fifth of its service life taken off. If you expected a 20 year life for Dreadnought then 1906-1926 drops to 1906-1922. Technology change meant that Dreadnought was 2nd rate by 1916 (missed Jutland) and out of service by 1919.
The IJN had a similar philosophy - 8 years A team, 8 years B Team, 8 years in reserve and then scrap at 24 years age.
In full service yea but in reserve I would think far less, prior to WWI without treaties to limit it the RN kept large numbers of ships in very cheap reserve with tiny crews
I still think a 13.5" BB would outfight any CA/CL and therefore force the commit elements of the main fleet of one of the big three ie IJN/USN/RN even without WNT into the 30/40s, yes it would be terribly vulnerable and could not run from faster stronger ships but it would stop a cheap victory by second rate forces.
With hindsight of WNT/LNT both in the lack of new fast/strong ships and total number limits the deal of buying a couple of 13.5" ships is far better, say for instance they where based in DEI this would require the IJN to commit main battleships to fight them and this would go totally against safely awaiting the USN. 8" ships would really not do and the cost of a say three of 13.5" ships in low readiness (one commissioned 2/3 crew/ one inactive reserve 1/10 crew/ one being repaired at home 1/3 crew) would be low.
In reserve is about 40% the cost of full service and you still need to have a pool of reservists to bring it up to full compliment. Prior to WW1, the RN was struggling with the large numbers of ships in reserve that would be death traps in war so they were junked.
A 13.5" BB without refit by 1941 is about 15 years over it's useful life. It would have reliability problems, out of date gunnery and your crews would probably revolt rather than risking their lives in outdated kit. I see your point on being a scarecrow and the Dutch did acknowledge this with the unfulfilled fleet plans from 1912 to 1939. However, cruisers need to be killed by bigger cruisers.
My post from another thread but relevant here:
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I'm not sure how official this was but in 1919 a Dutch naval officer established that the size of the Dutch navy for defence of the Dutch East Indies to be:
1922-1924 consisting of 1 division battleships consisting of 4-30,000 ton super dreadnoughts
1 flotilla of 8 destroyers
1 division cruisers consisting of 1-28.000 ton battle cruiser with a speed of 30 kts
3-7,000 ton protected cruisers with a speed of 32 knots
3-1,500 ton scout cruisers with a speed of 35 knots
3 flotilla’s submarines each of 1 torpedo cruiser, 3 torpedo boats and 10 submarines.
He suspected that an enemy force of 8 super dreadnoughts supported by cruisers and so on would gain the supremacy in the Java Sea. Further more was it possible if the Dutch finances were booming again within 8-10 years the Royal Netherlands Navy even could number 8 super dreadnoughts and 8 super dreadnought cruisers or battle cruisers. His main opinion was that if the Netherlands were not able to maintain a fleet able to have the supremacy in the archipelago an absolute strong army was necessary to hold at least Java and Sumatra in Dutch hands when the navy failed to stop the enemy invasion.
One-time costs:
4 super dreadnoughts (160 million Guilders)
1 battle cruiser (40 million)
3 protected cruisers (30 million)
3 scout cruisers (12 million)
3 torpedo cruisers (9 million)
8 destroyers (12 million)
9 torpedo boats (9 million)
30 submarines (45 million)
sub total 317 million Dutch Guilders.
Further more 35 million for naval base, air force support pints
sub total 352 million minus already available material ad 80 million sub total 272 million with 8 million for unsuspected costs was in total 280 million Dutch guilders at once needed for obtaining a powerful fleet.
Annual costs for maintenance of above mentioned fleet
4 battleships each 2.75=11 million
1 battle cruiser 2.7 million
3 protected cruisers each 0.35=1.05 million
3 scout and 3 torpedo cruiser each 0.3=1.8 million
8 destroyers each 0.15=1.20 million
9 torpedo boats each 0.08=720,000
30 submarines each 0.08=2.40 million
sub total 20,87 million Dutch guilders to which around 4 million were to be added for arsenal, department, administration, education/training totally 24.87 million Dutch guilders.
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I'm not sure how official this was but in 1919 a Dutch naval officer established that the size of the Dutch navy for defence of the Dutch East Indies to be:
1922-1924 consisting of 1 division battleships consisting of 4-30,000 ton super dreadnoughts
1 flotilla of 8 destroyers
1 division cruisers consisting of 1-28.000 ton battle cruiser with a speed of 30 kts
3-7,000 ton protected cruisers with a speed of 32 knots
3-1,500 ton scout cruisers with a speed of 35 knots
3 flotilla’s submarines each of 1 torpedo cruiser, 3 torpedo boats and 10 submarines.
He suspected that an enemy force of 8 super dreadnoughts supported by cruisers and so on would gain the supremacy in the Java Sea. Further more was it possible if the Dutch finances were booming again within 8-10 years the Royal Netherlands Navy even could number 8 super dreadnoughts and 8 super dreadnought cruisers or battle cruisers. His main opinion was that if the Netherlands were not able to maintain a fleet able to have the supremacy in the archipelago an absolute strong army was necessary to hold at least Java and Sumatra in Dutch hands when the navy failed to stop the enemy invasion.
One-time costs:
4 super dreadnoughts (160 million Guilders)
1 battle cruiser (40 million)
3 protected cruisers (30 million)
3 scout cruisers (12 million)
3 torpedo cruisers (9 million)
8 destroyers (12 million)
9 torpedo boats (9 million)
30 submarines (45 million)
sub total 317 million Dutch Guilders.
Further more 35 million for naval base, air force support pints
sub total 352 million minus already available material ad 80 million sub total 272 million with 8 million for unsuspected costs was in total 280 million Dutch guilders at once needed for obtaining a powerful fleet.
Annual costs for maintenance of above mentioned fleet
4 battleships each 2.75=11 million
1 battle cruiser 2.7 million
3 protected cruisers each 0.35=1.05 million
3 scout and 3 torpedo cruiser each 0.3=1.8 million
8 destroyers each 0.15=1.20 million
9 torpedo boats each 0.08=720,000
30 submarines each 0.08=2.40 million
sub total 20,87 million Dutch guilders to which around 4 million were to be added for arsenal, department, administration, education/training totally 24.87 million Dutch guilders.
Those ships were built to IJN standard from the get-go, so if the UK had decided to take them over, then they would have required modification to a degree.
After some discussion the Japanese decided that the 4 ships offered by Britain would serve no useful purpose but maybe the two offered to Portugal would serve as second-line. Japan entered talks with Portugal about a switch the 12" ships to go to Portugal and the 13.5" ships to Japan. As a sweetener the Japanese would include the two Satsuma-class battleships in the trade. The Portuguese were amazed at their streak of luck for a small cost, six capital ships could enter their service. Due to the small size of the Portuguese economy only 3 would be in service at one time and the other three in reserve. The Portuguese informed Britain that it would accept the ships provided Britain helped in upgrading infrastructure not only in Portugal but in Angola and Mozambique where in the future the ships might possibly be based, one ship in Europe, one ship in Africa on the Atlantic and one on the Indian sides of the continent. When word of the possible deals leaked to quite the uproar Britain offered Australia Tiger as a replacement for Australia. Tiger would become the new Australia but the ships would still be a part of the Imperial Fleet. Spain which was not happy with their neighbor having a significantly larger navy was quietly offered; Neptune, Hercules and Colossus. The Spanish were informed the Portugal was allied with Britain in the recent war and the offer could be looked at as a reward for faithful friendship but since the war did disrupt Spain in build three new battleships of Reina Victoria Eugenia-class these battleships in the offer could be considered compensation.
Portugal would be hard pressed to maintain one of those ships, let alone 3 active and 3 in reserve. Japan would rather use the money to build new useful ships instead of ships that are approaching the end of their useful lifespan. And Britain would not sell of 13.5" gunned ships this quickly, replacing them with newer ships and then selling them of would be the way to do it. The Australia can't be sold unless the Australians agree, not unless the UK want a diplomatic disaster on their hands, and good imperial relations trumps keeping nice to Japan.
What's in it for Britain? Why practically giving away ships that they can keep in reserve and that they have already payed for. Instead of waiting until they have newer ships built to replace them.
Very much agree. We could use some cruiser-sized ships, but that's it.
Before WW1, Portugal was looking at a navy with 3 Orion style ships and probably funded by shaving off pieces of Africa to Germany and GB. It was unaffordable after the war.
Britain was looking to get rid of the 12" battlecruisers so if an ally ended up with them Britain would be happy. At the same time the Royal Navy was quite aware of the deficiencies in their first 13.5" battlecruisers and if they could be unloaded so be it. Britain was also getting rid of their 12" battleships. And while Australia did pay and own the Australia they might be happy with receiving the Tiger as a replacement especially if it was renamed Australia.
They might want to sell them but not before they have been replaced. So the timeframe is not plausible, the Battlecruisers are still among the few fast ships Britain have. There is no reason to get rid of them before they are replaced. And that still does not change the fact that Portugal lacks the money to have 3 active and 3 reserve battleships/battlecruisers.
With regards to Australia, the problem isn't that they get a replacement for their ship, it's that the British Government acts without consulting them first which would have some nasty political implications and the British government isn't quite that stupid.
If Lion and Princess Royal were to offered to anyone it would be to Australia and Canada to encourage them to take a larger role in imperial defence matters rather than relying on the Mother Country. The 12" gunned Battlecruisers were known to be dangerously obsolete.
By the time frame we are talking its 13.5" gunned ships at best and they were already becoming obsolete. 12" BCs were worthless
I wouldn't say the Splendid Cats were obsolete. They needed updating true, but still could have been useful for at least the next 10 years maybe if pushed 15.