Alternate warships of nations

[SgtRL-3]

Hamar class light cruiser (The first ship laid down in 1946)

Ship name (4 ships):
Hamar (HArMS Hamar, commissioned 1950)
Porsgrunn (HArMS Porsgrunn, commissioned 1950)
Keflavik (HArMS Keflavik, commissioned 1951)
Sursborg (HArMS Sursborg, commissioned 1951)

Arendelle's last gun cruisers. In 1945, SDK began designing the next generation of cruisers around the requirement for an "air defense ship adapted to the threats of the jet age". When the design was released to the public, the Hk 42 6-inch autocannon, which had been widely publicized in the press, was not adopted, and the caliber of the new cruiser's main gun was reverted to 5-inches. 1945-46 saw a number of simulations conducted by the Arendian Navy in the context of the Pacific War, and it was determined that the 6-inch autocannon's height of fire was entirely excessive. The inferiority of adaptability made it impossible to match the firepower density of the 5-inch anti-aircraft guns in the same tonnage.
With a design displacement of 11,500 tons, the final design of the Hamar-class surpassed the Kongsberg-class light cruisers with 12 6-inch guns in the treaty era, and the 12 5-inch 54-caliber fully automatic guns could fire 360 rounds per minute of proximity fuse anti-aircraft shells HE or anti-surface SAP shells, and eight twin 57-mm 60-caliber anti-aircraft guns and four quadruple 30-mm anti-aircraft guns provided close firepower, guided by independent fire control radars. To follow the Grenen-class supercarriers, an 80,000 hp power pack was installed to reach a speed of 33 knots.
After entering service, the Hamar-class mainly operated in carrier battle groups, occasionally traveling to the Mediterranean to participate in exercises. In 1961, the ship underwent missile transformation, dismantled all twin 5-inch guns, replaced it with two sets of Mk 10 Terrier GMLS, completely updated electronic equipment, installed bulbous bow sonar, and continued to serve as the first generation of missile cruisers of Arendelle until it was decommissioned in 1981.

 

[perfectgeneral]

Looking at a basic jpeg of a bar chart that is too big to attach (668kb!) I can see that the cost per ton to build and operate different types of warship vary substantially.

All per ton per year
Type: (build) operate
35,000t BB: (£8.79) £10.89
35,000t BC: (£8.79) £13.55
23,000t CV: (£11.45) £73.49
10,000t CVL: (£21.13) £72.57
10,000t CA: (£14.30) £29.22
6,000t CL: (£14.64) £32.73

So if the deciders of such things looked at this chart in 1918 with peacetime approaching. Wouldn't they scrap all but the most modern of large aircraft carriers and all small ones? No worries about building Hood and the Nelrods (bigger!) as they are relatively cheap as fleet in being. The peacetime role. Come the WNT, the big question mark for me is the BCs converting to large aircraft carriers. Just how much of a hurry is there to have these finished, afloat and costing a huge amount per ton. Why not milk the job for shipyard work in the battleship holiday? Raze them back to the bare machinery and bulge the beam with fuel tank compartments. Put a nice thick slab of 4" armour over the citadel inside that, sitting on the torpedo bulkhead and all compartments between them. Extend the hull out as far from the wider beam as possible. Up and out to match the Sara and Lex (they look about 35,000t standard) as best we can. These are the peacetime CVs to wave a big stick. As much as the USN. Eventually. No rush. The hangar spaces might even need redesigning in light of new aircraft and/or experience.

HMS Courageous, completed as BC Nov 1916, Converted to 30,000t aircraft carrier, June 1924 – February 1930
HMS Glorious, completed as BC Oct 1916, Converted to 30,000t aircraft carrier, June 1925 – May 1931
HMS Furious, completed as BC Jun 1917, Converted to 30,000t aircraft carrier, Sept 1927 – January 1933

Such extra volume was made below the waterline that 1,500t of extra armour could be put over the flight deck citadel area. While this wasn't in the spirit of the WNT, it at least observed the rules as Washington saw them and allowed the RN some dignity when comparisons were drawn.

Ark Royal (building 1934 - 1939) is made to a similar, but more purpose built design. Filling the torpedo defence system with fuels and feed water entirely to reduce the standard displacement to 27,000t. To keep the hull at the right depth in the water, the flight deck was unarmoured, just pine. The intention being to empty the innermost and outermost voids for buoyancy later (in emergency) and add the armour. In the build up to any such conflict, a further two to four would be ordered*. Past the utility of limitation treaties. The point being that even extended building time is easier on ship wear and cheaper than putting them to sea earlier.

* The follow class of long hull Ark Royals were known as the Invincible class (35,000t standard). The best three were retained post-war in a similar peacekeeping role as the Courageous class. Replaced in 1955 when a purpose built, angled deck aircraft carrier class for jets superseded them.

 

[Lascaris]

Looking at a basic jpeg of a bar chart that is too big to attach (668kb!) I can see that the cost per ton to build and operate different types of warship vary substantially.

All per ton
Type: (build) operate
35,000t BB: (£8.79) £10.89
35,000t BC: (£8.79) £13.55
23,000t CV: (£11.45) £73.49
10,000t CVL: (£21.13) £72.57
10,000t CA: (£14.30) £29.22
6,000t CL: (£14.64) £32.73

Most of these numbers appear off by about an order of magnitude?

 

[perfectgeneral]

Most of these numbers appear off by about an order of magnitude?

The proportion remains for my argument, then.

 

[Parma]

Eendracht class large light cruisers with 10 x 150 mm maingun armament

Ever since the cancelation of the light cruiser Celebes, part of the Java Class light cruisers the Royal Netherlands Navy desired a third light cruiser.
During the cabinet term of Ruys de Beerenbroekc III (1929-193) , secretary Deckers of Defense managed to navigate a fleet plan for the next ten years. An acheivement since there was a report of a commity who in 1927 adviced for a further reduction of the already very small fleet and the still very strong pacifist movement. The economic tide didn't help either.
As part of this fleet plan, secretary Deckers tried to accept the construction of a third light cruiser, much desired by the Navy, however the budget for a ship like this was deemed too small, Cabinet members and parlaiment was very reluctant to increase the budget in order to build a proper light cruiser. The oppositon was too large and in order to stop the discussion, Secretary Deckers withdraw the cruiser or flotillaleader plan and replaced it for the order of a class of submarines.
Strangly enough the order of the five submarines met much less resistance both in Cabinet and parlaiment, and in 1933 the first boats of the five O16 class submarines were laid down. The total price of these boats was still lower than the light cruiser, although marginal, but the explotation cost per baot was dramaticly lower than a light cruiser.
After the formation of a new cabinet, Colijn III in 1933 , the plan for a third light cruiser was made again for the budget of 1936. Secretary of Defense Mr Deckers. noted in his earlier fleet plan the need to replace the aging Java class cruisers. There for the ship would be the first of a class of two and potential three ships. The plan had support of PM Colijn who acted as secretary of Defense ad interim in 1935.

Due to the cancelation of the third cruiser the discussion to replace the two Java class cruisers started earlier. As early as 1934*, discussions started at the Ministry of Defense and the Naval Staff about the design of two new cruisers to replace the cruisers Hr.Ms. Java and Sumatra, which both dated from 1925 and 1926. The Sumatra, which was qualitatively inferior to the two sister ships, was to be taken out of service in 1942*, while this was to be done with the Java in 1945*.

The first design plans for the new cruisers bore the year 1936*. In connection with the year for which the cruisers entered the state budget, the design was further referred to as Cruiser 1937*. The 1937* state budget included the first instalment for one cruiser, while later funds for the second ship were allocated. Including security, the ships would each cost approximately 15 million guilders (The currency used in the Netherlands at the time). In June 1936*, the Secretary of Defense at interim Colijn , gave contracts to N.V. Dok- en Werf Maatschappij Wilton Fijenoord and N.V. Rotterdamse Droogdok Maatschappij for one cruiser each.

- The ship at Wilton Fijenoord was named De Zeven Provinciën with the date of readiness on September 1, 1939*.
- The ship at the Rotterdam Dry Dock Company was named Kijkduin, launched as Eendracht, with the completion date of December 30, 1939*.

On May 19, 1937*, the first keel plate for the Kijkduin was laid with some ceremony at the shipyard of the Rotterdam Dry Dock Company. On September 5, 1937* this happened at Wilton Fijenoord for the De Zeven Provinciën. Wilton Fijenoord was a little later because of the occupation of all the big slopes for the ships to stand on. Another large new slope was under construction.

The dates of the contracts and keel laying show that a great deal of work had already been done in advance on specifications of armour plates and profiles for the ship's material and that contracts had been concluded long before this, even before the formal decision to build was
made. All of this material had been ordered in the United States and was delivered at a rapid pace.
The armor material had also been pre-ordered from Bofors in Sweden, after comparative firing tests had been carried out. Orders had also been placed for various auxiliary tools and other materials.

The third cruiser of the class was also awarded by Secretary of Defense Dr. J.J.C. van Dijk,to Wilton Fijenoord.
Construction on the slopes progressed quickly of this yard, and the third ship was laid down on September 5, 1939.
Wilton Fijenoord, with the machining of hull and other material in advance of the laydown of the keel, the yard progressed very fast on the third ship. With financial support from the Ministry of Social affairs, as part of a unemployment scheme, the work on the ship continued 24hours six days of the week. Not at Sunday. The efforts of the Wilton Feijenoord yard made it possible to launch the ship already in January as HNLMS De Ruyter. When the Netherlands was invaded by National Socialist Germany the ship was nearly 72% complete. In the night of 12 to 13 May 1940 the ship could escape to England together with a good portion of parts and material on board and a group of volunteers of the yard. Due to political disagreement between the Dutch cabinet in exile under PM Colijn and the British government the ship was moved to the Tanjung Priok in NEI in September 1940. In October 1941 she was complete and commissioned. Together with her other two sisters, the two Java class light cruiser and the two Tromp class flotilla leaders she was the back bone of the Royal Netherlands Navy surface fleet. The Tromp flotilla leaders were laid down in 1936 and 1937*.
It is unclear when and why the Kijkduin changed her name in Eendracht, the name which she had when launced.


The ships were designed by Ir. G. 't Hooft, the brilliant chief of the Shipbuilding Office. With this design he continued the development of his design of the earlier canceled light cruiser from 1933.

The new cruisers were designed with a maximum length of 185.70 meters, a maximum beam of 17.25 meters and a hollow to the main deck of 11.65 meters. The water displacement fully equipped, so with the storage tanks filled to 98%, would amount to 10,795 tons. The standard displacement was 8,350 tons. Propulsion was provided by Parsons turbines with an installed power of 78,000 hp at 300

revolutions per minute, so that the required speed became 32 knots. The crusading turbines delivered 12,000 hp at a service speed of 20 knots per hour at a displacement of 8,900 tons. The operating distance for this vessel is stated in the specifications at 4,500 nautical miles.

The ship's protection was a 100mm armoured belt around the hull and the ship's ends were protected by narrower 75mm belt. The deck was 25mm thick and was connected with the upper edge of the belt. The turrets had 100mm of frontal armour and 50mm on all other sides.

For the main weapons it was originally planned to arm the cruiser with the usual 150mm/50 guns ( as on the Java and Sumatra and gun boats), but later the new 150mm/53 guns had been chosen.

The order to manufacture the weapons was given out to the Swedish Bofors company. The ship was supposed to be armed with ten of these guns. They would have been in four turrets, that being two triple and two twin turrets. These turrets were build and shipped to the Netherlands. The maximum elevation angle of these turrets reached 60°, that could possibility ensure the ability of shooting at air targets. Thanks to last circumstance, the designers chose to limit the large calibre secondary weaponry, and instead focus on more powerful medium range weaponry. That being twelve 40mm/56 Bofors guns, mounted in six double Hazemeyer gun mounts.

Further planned weapons were eight 12.7mm machineguns mounted in four double turrets, six 533mm torpedo tubes mounted in two triple mounts and two extra Fokker C.14w floatplane aircraft.

* alternate history dates. The third cruiser was never considered and made up, although the keel laying date is OTL.
Wilton Feijenoord did plan to complete the cruiser in 24 months at normal shifts OTL.

OTL shipyard RDM at 12% finished.

 

[Logan2879]

View attachment 902335
Eendracht class large light cruisers with 10 x 150 mm maingun armament

Ever since the cancelation of the light cruiser Celebes, part of the Java Class light cruisers the Royal Netherlands Navy desired a third light cruiser.
During the cabinet term of Ruys de Beerenbroekc III (1929-193) , secretary Deckers of Defense managed to navigate a fleet plan for the next ten years. An acheivement since there was a report of a commity who in 1927 adviced for a further reduction of the already very small fleet and the still very strong pacifist movement. The economic tide didn't help either.
Initially secretary Decker tried to accept the construction of a third light cruiser however the budget for a ship like this was deemed too small, Cabinet members and parlaiment was very reluctant to increase the budget in order to build a proper light cruiser. The oppositon was too large and iIn order to stop the discussion , Secretary Decker withdraw the cruiser or flotilaleader plan and replaced it for the order of a class of submarines.
Strangly enough the order of the five submarines met much less resistance both in Cabinet and parlaiment, and in 1933 the first boats of the five O16 class submarines were laid down. The total price of these boats was still lower than the light cruiser, although marginal, but the explotation cost per baot was dramaticly lower than a light cruiser.
After the formation of a new cabinet, Colijn III in 1933 , the plan for a third light cruiser was made again for the budget of 1936. Secretary of Defense Mr Deckers. noted in his earlier fleet plan the need to replace the aging Java class cruisers. The ship would be the first of a class of two potential three. The plan had support of PM Colijn who acted as secretary of Defense ad interim in 1935.

Due to the cancelation of the third cruiser the discussion to replace the two Java class cruisers started earlier. As early as 1934*, discussions started at the Ministry of Defense and the Naval Staff about the design of two new cruisers to replace the cruisers Hr.Ms. Java and Sumatra, which both dated from 1925 and 1926. The Sumatra, which was qualitatively inferior to the two sister ships, was to be taken out of service in 1942*, while this was to be done with the Java in 1945*.

The first design plans for the new cruisers bore the year 1936*. In connection with the year for which the cruisers entered the state budget, the design was further referred to as Cruiser 1937*. The 1937* state budget included the first instalment for one cruiser, while later funds for the second ship were allocated. Including security, the ships would each cost approximately 15 million guilders (The currency used in the Netherlands at the time). In June 1936*, the Secretary of Defense at interim Colijn , gave contracts to N.V. Dok- en Werf Maatschappij Wilton Fijenoord and N.V. Rotterdamse Droogdok Maatschappij for one cruiser each.

- The ship at Wilton Fijenoord was named De Zeven Provinciën with the date of readiness on September 1, 1939*.
- The ship at the Rotterdam Dry Dock Company was named Kijkduin with the completion date of December 30, 1939*.

On May 19, 1937*, the first keel plate for the Kijkduin was laid with some ceremony at the shipyard of the Rotterdam Dry Dock Company. On September 5, 1937* this happened at Wilton Fijenoord for the De Zeven Provinciën. Wilton Fijenoord was a little later because of the occupation of all the big slopes for the ships to stand on. Another large new slope was under construction.

The dates of the contracts and keel laying show that a great deal of work had already been done in advance on specifications of armour plates and profiles for the ship's material and that contracts had been concluded long before this, even before the formal decision to build was
made. All of this material had been ordered in the United States and was delivered at a rapid pace.
The armor material had also been pre-ordered from Bofors in Sweden, after comparative firing tests had been carried out. Orders had also been placed for various auxiliary tools and other materials.

The third cruiser of the class was also awarded by Secretary of Defense Dr. J.J.C. van Dijk,to Wilton Fijenoord.
Construction on the slopes progressed quickly of this yard, and the third ship was laid down on September 5, 1939.
Wilton Fijenoord, with the machining of hull and other material in advance of the laydown of the keel, the yard progressed very fast on the third ship. With financial support from the Ministry of Social affairs, as part of a unemployment scheme, the work on the ship continued 24hours six days of the week. Not at Sunday. The efforts of the Wilton Feijenoord yard made it possible to launch the ship already in January. When the Netherlands was invaded by National Socialist Germany the ship was nearly 72% complete. In the night of 12 to 13 May 1940 the ship could escape to England together with a good portion of parts and material on board and a group of volunteers of the yard. Due to political disagreement between the Dutch cabinet in exile under PM Colijn and the British government the ship was moved to the Tanjung Priok in NEI in September 1940. In October 1941 she was complete and commissioned. Together with her other two sisters, the two Java class light cruiser and the two Tromp class flotilla leaders she was the back bone of the Royal Netherlands Navy surface fleet. The Tromp flotilla leaders were laid down in 1936 and 1937*
The design was a continuation of the development of the design of the earlier cancelled light cruiser from 1933.

The new cruisers were designed with a maximum length of 185.70 meters, a maximum beam of 17.25 meters and a hollow to the main deck of 11.65 meters. The water displacement fully equipped, so with the storage tanks filled to 98%, would amount to 10,795 tons. The standard displacement was 8,350 tons. Propulsion was provided by Parsons turbines with an installed power of 78,000 hp at 300

revolutions per minute, so that the required speed became 32 knots. The crusading turbines delivered 12,000 hp at a service speed of 20 knots per hour at a displacement of 8,900 tons. The operating distance for this vessel is stated in the specifications at 4,500 nautical miles.

The ship's protection was a 100mm armoured belt around the hull and the ship's ends were protected by narrower 75mm belt. The deck was 25mm thick and was connected with the upper edge of the belt. The turrets had 100mm of frontal armour and 50mm on all other sides.

For the main weapons it was originally planned to arm the cruiser with the usual 150mm/50 guns, but later the new 150mm/53 guns had been chosen.

The order to manufacture the weapons was given out to the Swedish Bofors company. The ship was supposed to be armed with ten of these guns. They would have been in four turrets, that being two triple and two twin turrets. These turrets were build and shipped to the Netherlands. The maximum elevation angle of these turrets reached 60°, that could possibility ensure the ability of shooting at air targets. Thanks to last circumstance, the designers chose to limit the large calibre secondary weaponry, and instead focus on more powerful medium range weaponry. That being twelve 40mm/56 Bofors guns, mounted in six double Hazemeyer gun mounts.

Further planned weapons were eight 12.7mm machineguns mounted in four double turrets, six 533mm torpedo tubes mounted in two triple mounts and two extra Fokker C.14w floatplane aircraft.

* alternate history dates. The third cruiser was never considered and made up, although the keel laying date is OTL.
Wilton Feijenoord did plan to complete the cruiser in 24 months at normal shifts OTL.
View attachment 902336
OTL shipyard RDM at 12% finished.

so the third cruiser name is De Ruyter?

 

[Parma]

so the third cruiser name is De Ruyter?

Yes why not, Eendracht, Zeven Provincien and De Ruyter. Nice names for a cruiser class, refering to the 17th century.
The first two were 17th century warships and De Ruyter was commanding the Zeven Provincien.