Alternate War of the Castilian Succession

I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but the search wont work for me so I decided to make a new topic.

WI Juana's supporters win the War of the Castilian Succession? My knowledge of European politics of the time period is terrible, so I thought I'd ask you guys to help me out. It seems like there could be some really interesting effects, especially since the discovery of the new world is only a couple decades away.
 

Philip

Donor
I looked at this a while ago, but don't remember all of the details. IIRC, you should end up with Castile-Portugal union instead of a Castile-Aragon union. I don't know if there could be as strong a political union as OTL's C-A --- IIRC, Juana's supporters among the nobility favored her because they saw her as weaker than Isabella.

The union could eliminate the Portuguese-Castilian rivalry in the Atlantic. It could also influence the end of the Reconquista. In OTL, the union of Aragon and Castile eliminated any rivalry they had for Granada. If Castile is united with Portugal, the could be some disputes over Granada.
 
I looked at this a while ago, but don't remember all of the details. IIRC, you should end up with Castile-Portugal union instead of a Castile-Aragon union. I don't know if there could be as strong a political union as OTL's C-A --- IIRC, Juana's supporters among the nobility favored her because they saw her as weaker than Isabella.

Actually if Juana had won the war it wouldn't necessarily mean an union between Portugal and Castile. By the time of his marriage to her Afonso V already had a son who IOTL inherited his throne (John II) and a daughter (Joana). Unless butterflies make John die childless earlier then any son that Afonso V would have with Juana would inherit only Castile, so we only would have a dynastical change, with the Aviz replacing the Trastamara. However, I agree with you that during some years we would probably have less competition between Portugal and Castile.
 

Philip

Donor
Actually if Juana had won the war it wouldn't necessarily mean an union between Portugal and Castile.

Thanks. I think I may have been recalling my own ATL musings where John II was married to Joana.

However, I agree with you that during some years we would probably have less competition between Portugal and Castile.

Any thoughts on Granada?
 
Any thoughts on Granada?

Well, regardless of the result of the war Castile would still the greatest power of the Iberian Peninsula, and by that time Granada was completely surrounded by Castilian land, it didn't have a border with Aragon. Probably the conquest of Granada could be slowed, but the Ottoman rise in the Mediterranean and the possibility of a Muslim power helping them would probably force the Castilians to take action, with help of Portugal (as Lisbon had territories in Morocco that could be threatened too) and probably with neutrality of Aragon (I doubt that Ferdinand and Isabella would really complain about their destruction). Also, the new king-consort of Castile (Afonso V) could try to boost the position of the royal couple by destroying the last remmant of Muslim power in the Peninsula.
 
I'm thinking off the top of my head here but wasn't Aragon's pretensions to Granada ended when they were forced to cede Murcia in what? 1360? I know they hankered for it back for a while but IIRC they eventually were forced to acknowledge its loss officially, and I'm pretty sure that was before the POD here.
 
If something becomes de facto almost impossible, it doesn't mean they had to give up their pretensions.;)
I did some reading and apparently the Crown of Aragon had to give up the kingdom of Murcia in 1304, it formally became Aragonese in 1296. This was all part of treaties, which coordinated the Reconquista, however when Aragon couldn't expand any further on the Iberian Peninsula they shifted towards the mediterranean.
If the Crown of Aragon for some reason managed to keep the kingdom of Murcia (many of the christian settlers came from the lands of the crown of Aragon), Aragon could have conquered some more bordering regions in Andalusia; however even if Aragon managed to keep Murcia, Castille probably would have conquered most of Andalusia (eventually).
 
I looked at this a while ago, but don't remember all of the details. IIRC, you should end up with Castile-Portugal union instead of a Castile-Aragon union. I don't know if there could be as strong a political union as OTL's C-A --- IIRC, Juana's supporters among the nobility favored her because they saw her as weaker than Isabella.

The union could eliminate the Portuguese-Castilian rivalry in the Atlantic. It could also influence the end of the Reconquista. In OTL, the union of Aragon and Castile eliminated any rivalry they had for Granada. If Castile is united with Portugal, the could be some disputes over Granada.

I like this a portuguese dominated castille..
 
At first I was thinking that a Portuguese-Castillian union ending with a single state would mean the Portuguese would monopolize both the new World and Asia

But then again Columbus asked Portuguese support before the Spaniards, so if we have a Portuguese-Castillian union, another country would find the new world

Christopher Columbus's brother Bartholomew asked support to the French, which in OTL didn't give and I think it wouldn't change ITL

The probable candidate to find the Americas IMHO is one of the Italian city states
Venice, the once only maritime power in the Mediterranean is slowly loosing it's grip there from competition with the Ottomans
Genoa, which is notably the Columbus brothers' hometown
Both city states rely heavily on trade, and they suffer heavily with the discovery of a sea route to the spice islands
The Columbus brothers did ask for support to both city states, which was denied because the two city states still control the spice trade

But I wouldn't say there would be an Italian new world as the problem with Italian city states, there wouldn't be enough colonists and soldiers to successfully subdue a whole continent
And as merchant states looking for goods, unless they arrive at Mexico instantly and find the gold there, they would view this as an invaluable piece of land and just leave it

So even if the Americas did get discovered, they won't get colonized as fast as they did with the Spanish
But if they do get discovered, the natives will have enough time to adapt with European diseases, making great civilizations like the Aztecs and Incas much harder to beat :D
 
At first I was thinking that a Portuguese-Castillian union ending with a single state would mean the Portuguese would monopolize both the new World and Asia

But then again Columbus asked Portuguese support before the Spaniards, so if we have a Portuguese-Castillian union, another country would find the new world

Christopher Columbus's brother Bartholomew asked support to the French, which in OTL didn't give and I think it wouldn't change ITL

The probable candidate to find the Americas IMHO is one of the Italian city states
Venice, the once only maritime power in the Mediterranean is slowly loosing it's grip there from competition with the Ottomans
Genoa, which is notably the Columbus brothers' hometown
Both city states rely heavily on trade, and they suffer heavily with the discovery of a sea route to the spice islands
The Columbus brothers did ask for support to both city states, which was denied because the two city states still control the spice trade

But I wouldn't say there would be an Italian new world as the problem with Italian city states, there wouldn't be enough colonists and soldiers to successfully subdue a whole continent
And as merchant states looking for goods, unless they arrive at Mexico instantly and find the gold there, they would view this as an invaluable piece of land and just leave it

So even if the Americas did get discovered, they won't get colonized as fast as they did with the Spanish
But if they do get discovered, the natives will have enough time to adapt with European diseases, making great civilizations like the Aztecs and Incas much harder to beat :D

What about 'Burgundy' (as a part of the Habsburg Lands):D.
 
What about 'Burgundy' (as a part of the Habsburg Lands):D.

I see burgundy has its own cult following :p
Which one thou? The Duchy of burgundy was only recently annexed by France at that time :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_Circle#history
In 1473 there were plans of turning Burgundy into an actual Kingdom equal to France, but was denied
And 6 years later they lost all their coast in the lowlands to the Austrian Hapsburgs
And Burgundy's sliders in Europa Universalis clearly show that they are more focused in land warfare :p

But I like the idea of a Hapsburg America, thou I don't know where they would get the navy since Iberia is not part of them
 
I see burgundy has its own cult following :p
Which one thou? The Duchy of burgundy was only recently annexed by France at that time :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_Circle#history
In 1473 there were plans of turning Burgundy into an actual Kingdom equal to France, but was denied
And 6 years later they lost all their coast in the lowlands to the Austrian Hapsburgs
And Burgundy's sliders in Europa Universalis clearly show that they are more focused in land warfare :p

But I like the idea of a Hapsburg America, thou I don't know where they would get the navy since Iberia is not part of them

Mary the Rich and her descendents never gave up the ducal title of Burgundy. That is also why I wrote 'Burgundy' and not Burgundy.
And I already knew about the plans to turn Burgundy, or another of their possessions (or even reviving Lotharingia of Frisia) into a kingdom (which would have stayed a part of the empire). There also were similar plans in 1447, 1454, 1463 and 1467.
Furthermore they didn't lose their coast, when Philip the Fair, the son of Mary and Maximilian, was old enough he became the ruler of what was left from the Burgundian inheritance and in in the Low Countries he is often referred to as the duke of Burgundy. As far a the Burgundy Circle was concerned, the only thing what happed was a dynastic change from the house Valois-Burgundy to the house of Habsburg (the mother of Philip the Fair was the last ruler from the house of Valois-Burgundy).
 
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Hmmm...
Even so, even the butterflies would have a hard time to get them to the Americas
Maybe the Americas is going independent after all

What would Aragon be like then? and also the Hapsburg without Spain
 
Mary the Rich and her descendents never gave up the ducal title of Burgundy. That is also why I wrote 'Burgundy' and not Burgundy.
And I already knew about the plans to turn Burgundy, or another of their possessions (or even reviving Lotharingia of Frisia) into a kingdom (which would have stayed a part of the empire). There also were similar plans in 1447, 1454, 1463 and 1467.
Furthermore they didn't lose a their coast, when Philip the Fair, the son of Mary and Maximilian, was old enough he became the ruler of what was left from the Burgundian inheritance and in in the Low Countries he is often referred to as the duke of Burgundy. As far a the Burgundy Circle was concerned, the only thing what happed was a dynastic change from the house Valois-Burgundy to the house of Habsburg (the mother of Philip the Fair was the last ruler from the house of Valois-Burgundy.
Francophone Hapsburgs I love it!
 
If something becomes de facto almost impossible, it doesn't mean they had to give up their pretensions.;)
I did some reading and apparently the Crown of Aragon had to give up the kingdom of Murcia in 1304, it formally became Aragonese in 1296. This was all part of treaties, which coordinated the Reconquista, however when Aragon couldn't expand any further on the Iberian Peninsula they shifted towards the mediterranean.
If the Crown of Aragon for some reason managed to keep the kingdom of Murcia (many of the christian settlers came from the lands of the crown of Aragon), Aragon could have conquered some more bordering regions in Andalusia; however even if Aragon managed to keep Murcia, Castille probably would have conquered most of Andalusia (eventually).

True, but without Murcia Aragon has no land border to Granada, thus any "pretensions" to Granada are only ever going to be that. They aren't going to try to get a piece of the pie - it's just too hard for them to manage.
 
Just other idea: without Castilian help, Aragon wouldn't be strong enough to resist French advances in Italy. So either Naples ends French or the Italian line of the Trastamaras is kept in the throne.
 
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