Alternate Wacko...Waco

[Grimm Reaper]

During President Clinton's first term the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms launched the assault on the 'compound' owned by the local wingnut cult, the Branch Davidians and their leader David Koresh.

In the ensuing firefight something on the order of 20 federal agents were killed or injured. This assault was launched in violation of various examples of common sense, the facts then available, and the pleas of the ATF's inside man whose phone call that the Davidians were armed and ready was somehow ignored.

Imagine that the ATF instead behaved with half a brain.

The children(all but four) are taken into protective custody while at the local schools and day care center. Medical experts are brought in to examine the children due to disturbing reports of Koresh's behavior with underage girls.

The large majority of the men from the compound are grabbed, with particular attention paid to the three(and an assistant) who co-owned a gun store and who were on the way to a gun show in Oklahoma, along with their 'wares'.

Koresh himself is nailed while jogging outside his compound, as he did almost every day weather permitted.

NOW a round-up can be launched against the skeleton crew of women and babies still inside the compound.

No one is killed or even injured.

What does this do to Clinton's first term? To Janet Reno's career?

Editing in effect! As a special bonus, can this sensible use of federal power be used politically in contrast to the infamous Ruby Ridge fiasco under President Bush?

 

[Grey Wolf]

I would think getting all your PODs simultaneouisly is massively unlikely

And if one itty bitty POD kicks in, then maybe its ramifications will be massive and more negative than you could wish

Or not, obviously but it seems perhaps

Grey Wolf

 

[Derek Jackson]

Would a better handling of Waco (I can't help mentioning that a Californian who I was studying with at the time refered to whacko Texas) have had an interesting effect. There might have been no Oklahoma attrocity in 1995.

Would that have subtly effected the balance of opinion in favour of the right and far right as compared to OTL?

 

[Falcon1976]

Waco did a good job of showing how the government now operates.
First, it will assault you because it's the government and can. It did.

If that fails you will be demonized in the press, called a dangerous gun toting doomsday cult that molests children and is bent on ruling the United States.
None of these accusations have panned out in court.

It will cut you off so that you can't communicate your side to the outside world. Everyone else might realize the government is full of it then.

It will siege you and starve you and it doesn't care about women and children.

Finally if you get through the rest of it, the government will eliminate you. At Waco they used a chemical that they knew could ignite in a closed space. I don't believe they made a mistake.

They may not have been nice guys but they weren't criminals. The federal government did this at Ruby Ridge and in Montana since then.

 

[NapoleonXIV]

Waco did a good job of showing how the government now operates.
First, it will assault you because it's the government and can. It did.

If that fails you will be demonized in the press, called a dangerous gun toting doomsday cult that molests children and is bent on ruling the United States.
None of these accusations have panned out in court.

[I]Largely because noone who made them is now alive to bring the matter up to court[/I]


It will cut you off so that you can't communicate your side to the outside world.

And to do this it will negotiate with you, in good faith and publicly for all sorts of insane peccadilloes, making sure that all your weird religious beliefs are completely communicated and understood by the outside world

Everyone else might realize the government is full of it then.

And they will do this is in the most prominent and obvious manner possible. They will create a media circus and make sure that all the media in the world has all their cameras in place

It will siege you and starve you and it doesn't care about women and children.

Finally if you get through the rest of it, the government will eliminate you. At Waco they used a chemical that they knew could ignite in a closed space. I don't believe they made a mistake.

Of course, and they will murder you right in front of everybody, AFTER they have spent 55 DAYS to make SURE everybody was watching.They may not have been nice guys but they weren't criminals.


Really, what do you call people who answer a valid federal warrant with rifle fire that kills four?

The federal government did this at Ruby Ridge and in Montana since then.

Sir, there is a type of person with whom you can do and say ANYTHING and EVERYTHING as long as you have shouted JESUS JESUS JESUS first. I leave it to you as to which type you are

 

[Dave Howery]

in Montana? are you talking about those goofy Freemen? there was no assault there, everything ended peacefully...

 

[Brilliantlight]

Sir, there is a type of person with whom you can do and say ANYTHING and EVERYTHING as long as you have shouted JESUS JESUS JESUS first. I leave it to you as to which type you are

Agreed, but the ATF did screw up there. They should have arrested Koresh while he jogged.

 

[Adamanteus]

I've never really understood what ATF did that was so wrong. They camped outside of the compound in Waco, and demanded that everyone give themselves up. Koresh refused, despite negotiation for several days. ATF tried various ways of breaking their will, like playing loud music at night, which didn't work. So, one day, the Branch Davidians set their house on fire, and, rather than try to run away as it is consumed in flames, stay inside and allow themselves and their kids to die. At this point, ATF charges in.

Explain how that was mishandled.

 

[MerryPrankster]

I've never really understood what ATF did that was so wrong. They camped outside of the compound in Waco, and demanded that everyone give themselves up. Koresh refused, despite negotiation for several days. ATF tried various ways of breaking their will, like playing loud music at night, which didn't work. So, one day, the Branch Davidians set their house on fire, and, rather than try to run away as it is consumed in flames, stay inside and allow themselves and their kids to die. At this point, ATF charges in.

Explain how that was mishandled.

The ATF attacked with CS tear gas and flash-bang bombs. CS tear gas is flammable. The Davidians had a lot of fuel and stuff floating around (preparing for Armageddon).

If the ATF is so innocent here, why were there muzzle flashes all around the compound (observing via FLIR cameras on helicopters)? Analysis of the footage seems to indicate that the ATF was firing on the people inside.

And why did the ATF want a confrontation so darn much? Publicity--there was talk of cutting the agency.

 

[Brilliantlight]

I've never really understood what ATF did that was so wrong. They camped outside of the compound in Waco, and demanded that everyone give themselves up. Koresh refused, despite negotiation for several days. ATF tried various ways of breaking their will, like playing loud music at night, which didn't work. So, one day, the Branch Davidians set their house on fire, and, rather than try to run away as it is consumed in flames, stay inside and allow themselves and their kids to die. At this point, ATF charges in.

Explain how that was mishandled.

By not arresting Koresh when he was jogging. That was the time to do it. But yeah, the Davidians were a bunch of freaks.

 

[Dave Howery]

wasn't it the FBI who launched that actual assault on the BD and at Ruby Ridge as well? IIRC, it was the BATF who made the initial raids that went awry, but the FBI took over after that...

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Adamant, the seige took place after the first assault was a bloody failiure. And it was the ATF, not the FBI, in Waco.

Grey Wolf, actually, all we need for a POD is "These are Christian cultists, attacking them on a Sunday morning means facing the maximum number. Attacking at 10 AM on Monday means picking them off at their jobs while 21 of the 25 kids are not at risk." Not a big change.

Brilliant, freaks they certainly were, but that isn't a crime.

...good thing for the members of this board...

A few points have been raised which the ATF knew about in advance:

1) 17 of the children were attending public school. Another 4 were in day care, at or near their mother's(ALWAYS the mother) place of employment, and at least one who had just given birth would sometimes go in and take the infant with her(no doubt trying to keep her job).

2) Most of the men had jobs off the compound, including all of the few who had any kind of police or military experience. Nearly half the women also.

3) Koresh himself would go jogging outside the compound almost daily.

4) On previous attempts to question Koresh, the local sheriff simply asked him to come to the police station, and he always did.

5) A second branch of the Cabinet, headed by Dr Donna Shalala, had responded to reports of abuse. They stand by their reports and examinations of the children to this day, no evidence.

6) The three men who had the most military/paramilitary experience were the co-owners of a gun store about 50 miles south of the compound, with a fourth member working at the store. On the morning of the first raid, they were actually in the compound with weapons they were taking up to a gun show in Oklahoma. As the trip was 5 hours, and as they didn't want to miss the Sunday services(fanatics, remember), they had decided to pack up and start Saturday night, stay overnight with family, and finish the trip Sunday.

7) The ATF knew that also, as national law regulating gun store owners and other licensed sellers require that, when moving your products, you must file a plan with the ATF reporting the specifics of what you are moving, the route taken, time expected, etc. so that if the worst happens it will be dramatically easier to trace the guns. The Branch Davidians who owned this store had filed the legally required report, if only because they already knew the government was watching them and losing their license and possibly their business would have followed any such failiure.

So the ATF deliberately launched an attack at a time when they expected to face maximum resistance and a unprecedented level of armament. Does this make sense to anyone?

Later Janet Reno ordered the second attack, that left over 90 dead, based on reports that the children were being molested. Reno never offered any proof of this, never offered any government report claiming this, and was unable to remember the name/face of the expert(s) who convinced her of this. And her fellow cabinet member, Dr Shalala, had reports from her own department saying this was not the case, by persons who had actually seen the children.

Perhaps if Janet Reno didn't have a record of being psychotic at the mention of the words 'child abuse' to the point of ignoring racism, police brutality, et al once she was on the rampage?

 

[Brilliantlight]

Brilliant, freaks they certainly were, but that isn't a crime.

...good thing for the members of this board...

True, but when you are THAT wierd and claim you're the reincarnation of Jesus Christ you tend to be a bit more dangerous. As the ME shows there is almost nothing worse then a bunch of religous fanatics.

 

[Derek Jackson]

Can anyone name a nation on Earth where there would not be an angry reaction by the state when people seeking to execute a valid search warrant are fired on?

 

[MerryPrankster]

Can anyone name a nation on Earth where there would not be an angry reaction by the state when people seeking to execute a valid search warrant are fired on?

I've heard the ATF fired first.

 

[carlton_bach]

Everyone's heard a different version, that's the bloody problem. You know, there used to be such a thing as the 'independent press'... oh, hell, I'm all nostalgic.

 

[Brilliantlight]

Everyone's heard a different version, that's the bloody problem. You know, there used to be such a thing as the 'independent press'... oh, hell, I'm all nostalgic.

The problem is that everyone looks at everything differently. That is why you have so many different versions. Events like these are too big, too political and too chaotic to have one version even if everyone was honest.

 

[Weapon M]

Whatever you think, there were 17 children killed, that would not have been killed if Dave Koresh had been picked up jogging. Period.

CS gas is outlawed from use in warfare. It shouldn't be thrown into places where children are. Ever. Period.

Too many people excuse whatever the government does by claiming that the victims "must have deserved it."

Everyone has the right to beleive in whatever nutty religion they choose. (I think they are all nutty.) This includes people living in a church and listening to Dave Koresh.

Whom did the Davidians harm? Hmmm? Or is "suspicion of conspiring to defy the state" grounds enough to exterminate them?

Seventeen kids, but that's okay, they were strange...

 

[gaijin]

If I had children and I was in a place were a gunbattle had just taken place I would do whatever it takes to get them out of harms way, ie out of the compound. I think that any parent that is willing to expose his children to this kind of danger is unfit to be a parent.

 

[NHBL]

A MESS--and an important point

This was a tragic mess--where the blame lies, I'm not going to try to place a guess, as there are too many uncertainties.
One point to make, though:
In almost any other nation, if people trying to execute a warrant were fired on, the next move would not be a seige. The next move would be the simple anhilation of the compound--tanks, aircraft, infantry assault...