Alternate VW Beetles?

[phx1138]

The OTL Type 1 is iconic, unquestionably.

However, there were other options... There was a "notchback" variant, never produced in quantity. There was a 4-door taxi (the Rometsch).

How much difference would it have made to the Type 1's success had the "notchback" been the standard model? Or had the 4-door been a factory option? Or a delivery?cool Or a wagon?

Would these have diluted sales & driven up costs? Or broadened the appeal & increased sales? Or made no difference?

 

[Just Leo]

In the race for iconicity, there are winners and others. I suppose the MG Midget was the Karmann Ghia version of the Morris. The version shown is a saloon. I wonder what it's like to own a saloon.

 

[MattII]

Well the Mini Van came out in 1960, so an early-60s Beetle van isn't necessarily off the books. For the Mini, the pickup followed in 1961, so there's another possibility. The real limiter is that rear engine.

 

[RLBH]

The real limiter is that rear engine.

Easily addressed with different design choices - the Citroen 2CV had a front engine and front wheel drive specifically to free up the rear for transporting farm goods to market. Have someone steeped in the Blood and Soil aspect of Naziism look over the plans and say 'but how does the farmer get his produce in the back?' - I'm sure that Porsche can come up with a front engined version. For that matter, it would ease cooling, given the sound logic behind an air-cooled engine.

Now, a front-engined Beetle - whether front-wheel or rear-wheel drive - is a very different kettle of fish in so many ways.

 

[Just Leo]

The VW 311 came in a station wagon, and two other styles. I owned a 1963 model. It had a trunk in the front and a station wagon in the back, and a flat motor under the floor, handy for bringing your produce to market. It didn't sell in Beetle numbers. They also made the Type 2, the bus. I owned two, '69 and '70. Still, only three doors.

 

[sonofpegasus]

In WW2 There was the type 285 pickup version of the Beatle.

 

[Jonathan]

Would these have diluted sales & driven up costs? Or broadened the appeal & increased sales? Or made no difference?

The point of the VW was meant as the title says "People's Wagon" a car that could be bought and driven by any one.
There were even talks about having a beetle trail.

If German had won the war, maybe the company would have had more money to experiment with the beetle.
However the on going war, the slump in the economy and the links with Nazi Party, really hit the company hard.
When the British Army intervened between 1945–48, it was unclear as to where the future of the company was going.
In 1948, Heinrich Nordhoff, was recruited to run the factory. Nordhoff was a former senior manager at Opel who had overseen civilian and military vehicle production in the 1930s and 1940s.
Most of Opel manufracturing at this time had a similar look to the OTL beetle.

Maybe if another engineer was recruited with a bit more imagination, the beetle could have been changed as we know it.

In WW2 There was the type 285 pickup version of the Beetle.

Its nice but I can't really see it being that appealing to everyone.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The real limiter is that rear engine.

Easily addressed with different design choices - the Citroen 2CV had a front engine and front wheel drive specifically to free up the rear for transporting farm goods to market. Have someone steeped in the Blood and Soil aspect of Naziism look over the plans and say 'but how does the farmer get his produce in the back?' - I'm sure that Porsche can come up with a front engined version. For that matter, it would ease cooling, given the sound logic behind an air-cooled engine.

Now, a front-engined Beetle - whether front-wheel or rear-wheel drive - is a very different kettle of fish in so many ways.

I'd argue it's not necessary to move the engine in order to make station wagon, van or pick-up truck versions.

The Chevrolet Lakewood was a rear engined estate car or wagon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Lakewood

And VW's own Beatle-engined Type-3 Square Back. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Type_3

 

[MattII]

I'd argue it's not necessary to move the engine in order to make station wagon, van or pick-up truck versions.

No it's not necessary, but it would be helpful, since it increases the amount of space available (those vehicles have high rear floors).

 

[phx1138]

Easily addressed with different design choices - the Citroen 2CV had a front engine and front wheel drive specifically to free up the rear for transporting farm goods to market. Have someone steeped in the Blood and Soil aspect of Naziism look over the plans and say 'but how does the farmer get his produce in the back?' - I'm sure that Porsche can come up with a front engined version. For that matter, it would ease cooling, given the sound logic behind an air-cooled engine.

Now, a front-engined Beetle - whether front-wheel or rear-wheel drive - is a very different kettle of fish in so many ways.

Don't forget, the Type 2 was also rear-engined.

That's getting rather far afield from the OP, however...

I'd agree with the comments on the Squarebacks; there's no reason the Type 1 couldn't have been built the same way.

I'm wondering more if the styling changes affect sales, especially the "notch" version.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

How straightforward would it have been to make use of the Type 4 and Wasserboxer engines in the Volkswagen Beetle, assuming the engines fit?

Full production versions of the 4-door and wagon Beetle bodystyles would have definitely increased sales, especially in South America where an ATL 4-door Beetle taxi would not have had a bad reputation as a notorious robbery trap like the OTL 2-door Beetle taxi did.

Volkswagen did investigate a Front-engine FWD project below the Beetle during the 1950s known as the EA48 though it was never pursued due to being killed off by the West German government itself, who warned that Volkswagen entering the sub-Beetle sector would be too damaging to other companies (like Borgward, etc). - http://jalopnik.com/vw-almost-designed-the-mini-back-in-1955-1702938661

One interesting variant that would have broadened the appeal of the Beetle is a full production version of the 25 hp 1290cc air-cooled Flat-4 diesel project, later increased to a 40 + hp 1.6 or even spawning 60 + hp dieselized Type 4 / Wasserboxer variants. - http://www.thegoldenbug.com/en/air-cooled_vw_history/d7/diesel_beetle

 

[wietze]

Well the Mini Van came out in 1960, so an early-60s Beetle van isn't necessarily off the books. For the Mini, the pickup followed in 1961, so there's another possibility. The real limiter is that rear engine.

there is a beetle van: It is called the Kombi
yes the body is different, but engine etc are beetle

 

[Admiral Beez]

To make the Beetle front engine, front wheel drive wouldn't it as simple as reversing the direction of the driver controls and passenger compartment?

 

[zoomar]

The air cooled rear engine was a major element of the Beetle's charm. No need to worry about radiators and antifreeze. A big plus was that the car had great traction in an era when front-wheel drive was rare and unreliable. Plus it sat high which meant it found go places many other small cheap import cars couldn't.

 

[Just Leo]

An interesting thing about the bug was its method on construction, not shared by subsequent VW products. The floor pan and engine/drive train/rolling gear could be, and were covered with a cornucopia of bodies from dune buggies to Mercedes SS100s. Engine performance was also easily transformed.

 

[phx1138]

How straightforward would it have been to make use of the Type 4 and Wasserboxer engines in the Volkswagen Beetle, assuming the engines fit?

It's been awhile since I was up on VWs, but IIRC the Type 4 is the Squareback/Notchback. If so, it's a bolt-in (more/less); VW rodders have been doing it since the '80s (at least). The Wasserboxer is unlikely, if not impossible. I'm not sure there's a gain.

Full production versions of the 4-door and wagon Beetle bodystyles would have definitely increased sales, especially in South America where an ATL 4-door Beetle taxi would not have had a bad reputation as a notorious robbery trap like the OTL 2-door Beetle taxi did.

I did not know about that. Thx.

Volkswagen did investigate a Front-engine FWD project below the Beetle during the 1950s known as the EA48 though it was never pursued due to being killed off by the West German government itself, who warned that Volkswagen entering the sub-Beetle sector would be too damaging to other companies (like Borgward, etc). - http://jalopnik.com/vw-almost-designed-the-mini-back-in-1955-1702938661

That's a new one on me, too. Thx.

One interesting variant that would have broadened the appeal of the Beetle is a full production version of the 25 hp 1290cc air-cooled Flat-4 diesel project, later increased to a 40 + hp 1.6 or even spawning 60 + hp dieselized Type 4 / Wasserboxer variants. - http://www.thegoldenbug.com/en/air-cooled_vw_history/d7/diesel_beetle

Excellent. A diesel 4-door?

That "notchback" variant strikes me as likely to improve sales, because it's more "conventional" than the OTL Type 1. In postwar Europe, it probably makes no diff, but in the U.S., I'd guess so.

An interesting thing about the bug was its method on construction, not shared by subsequent VW products. The floor pan and engine/drive train/rolling gear could be, and were covered with a cornucopia of bodies from dune buggies to Mercedes SS100s. Engine performance was also easily transformed.

All true. Most kit cars use a Type 1 pan. And VW rodders have bumped the Type 1 engine to over two liters (92x76?); IIRC, the Type 4 can be bumped to over 2.4l.

 

[Just Leo]

All true. Most kit cars use a Type 1 pan. And VW rodders have bumped the Type 1 engine to over two liters (92x76?); IIRC, the Type 4 can be bumped to over 2.4l.

The 1600 dual port VW engine can grow to 2.5 liters, at the extreme. The flat pancake, or Porsche motor, derived from the Porsche 914 never spawned the frenzy of aftermarket activity that the bug motor inspired.
It also never inspired the production activity in Brazil and Mexico.

 

[phx1138]

The 1600 dual port VW engine can grow to 2.5 liters, at the extreme. The flat pancake, or Porsche motor, derived from the Porsche 914 never spawned the frenzy of aftermarket activity that the bug motor inspired.
It also never inspired the production activity in Brazil and Mexico.

Last I saw, the Type 1 engines were only 2.2l (2270?).

As for the wagon version, VW could have built an early EA266 with the Type 1 engine & trans, instead of the Type 4 Squareback...

 

[PhilKearny]

Images of the VW Kombi pickup--a wretched vehicle.

 

[Just Leo]

Last I saw, the Type 1 engines were only 2.2l (2270?).

As for the wagon version, VW could have built an early EA266 with the Type 1 engine & trans, instead of the Type 4 Squareback...

It's been over 20 years since I had to know this stuff, as a business for 18 years.

People started businesses and industries based on the Beetle. Nobody started a business based on the Type 3, with 1500 flat motor, or Type 4, with pancake motor. You're trying to fix something that wasn't broke.