Alternate Vulcan Users...

Uh, have you thought that one entirely though, Mac? I don't think the Arrow is big enough for that job, myself. My idea of a long-lasting Arrow variant is to make it into a multirole aircraft, a delta-wing F-4, if you will. I'm envisioning the first Arrows entering RCAF service in 1961-62, which works great in the interceptor role. Later on, the company decides it will have difficulty selling straight interceptors, so it develops a version with bigger wings, leading edge extensions and other lift-enhancing features, more powerful engines, new avionics and weapons systems and external hardpoints, allowing the thing to carry more ordinance. This variant would be bought by the RCAF to replace some of its CF-101s and provide multi-role capability. Some of these replace existing Arrows, most don't. Many are sold here, as Canada has few qualms about selling to countries it can deal with.

Unfortunately, I don't think that the Arrow would have made a very good multirole aircraft - a bloody brilliant interceptor with almost no match (at least not in the East) it simply does not have adaptability to be anything else because:

1. Not enough range - the engines are so fuel hungry that it maxed out at 410 miles. Not that any of this mattered in a short range interceptor. Doesn't have the range to be anything else.

2. It's structure is unlikley to be able to cope with the stress and would require major internal redesign. The wings weren't even strong enough to support external fuel tanks.

However, what the Avro Arrow would be good at, and allow it to perhaps remain in service well into the early 21st century would be as a high altitude recon aircraft. Remove all of the weapon systems and replace with photography and extra fuel tanks. Upgrade the engines (perhaps RR Olypus' as in the TSR-2) and that could, with external tanks perhaps reach a radius of 3000 or so miles. So, in ALT 2006, instead of the RAF retiring it's last two Canberra recon aircraft, it could instead be it's last two Avro Arrows?

Russell
 
The SAAF is a possibility. They did try to procure Victors, it getting far enough that serials were allocated to the proposed South African aircraft, so it would not be a stretch for them to go to AVRO rather than HP.

There are also these (just a bit of eye candy really :p):

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Vulcan18.jpg


Vulcan19.jpg


Vulcan20.jpg


Vulcan21.jpg


Vulcan22.jpg


Vulcan23.jpg


Vulcan24.jpg


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Vulcan26.jpg


Vulcan08.jpg


Vulcan04.jpg



Vulcan03.jpg


Vulcan07.jpg
 

MacCaulay

Banned
This is all about Vulcans.

Only the Arrow can bring such conflicting facts.

I know it. It's amazing how just one plane could be possessed of an amazingly long range, ludicrously small gas tanks, an amazing weapons system that at the same time totally sucks balls, and yet was capable of smoking every other aircraft in the world while still being stupidly slow.

It's like Avro didn't build a plane, it built a god damned rip in the space time continuum or something...:rolleyes::D

The SAAF is a possibility. They did try to procure Victors, it getting far enough that serials were allocated to the proposed South African aircraft, so it would not be a stretch for them to go to AVRO rather than HP.

There are also these (just a bit of eye candy really :p)
Vulcan08.jpg


Vulcan04.jpg



Vulcan03.jpg


Vulcan07.jpg

And...YOU win the freaking thread. Like out of NOWHERE. Also, the randomness award goes to the Polish Vulcan.
 
I wonder how the RAAFs operation of 9 Vulcans (it was actually mooted in a small way) would affect the purchase of the TSR2s in the early 60s?

I wonder how the Vulcan B20s at Amberley would have altered the course of the issues in Indonesia between 1961 and 1966? And would they have been used in Vietnam?
 
Given the fact that the Vulcan's were delta wings, how difficult would it be to make them a true supersonic aircraft? Would the addition of new engines and some airframe modifications be all that was needed? Low level with supersonic cruise or just supersonic dash capabilities would be good. Also given the newer advances in stealth technology what would be needed to be done to the Vulcan design to make it more stealthy.
 
Apparently the Victor was very easily supersonic, it would go supersonic regularly in shallow dives and would have been properly supersonic with afterburners.

As for the Vulcan, it is very hard to supersonic at low level only a handful of aircraft can do it; F111, Tornado, Su24 and fighters which don't spend much time down there. A better approach would be that of the Buccaneer, sustaining M 0.9 at under 500ft for long distances, and the Vulcan could probably manage that with some mods.
 
I notice another Kiwi Vulcan amongst the eye candy carrying some Martel AS 37's. Nasty business.

The problem with high speed down low over land is the bumps in the air. The Vulcan has too much wing. Purpose-built a/c have variable sweep, as Tornado, F-111, or blown flaps, as TSR2, Vigilante, or variable camber. Starfighter had nothing, just long runways.
 
I wonder how the Vulcan B20s at Amberley would have altered the course of the issues in Indonesia between 1961 and 1966? And would they have been used in Vietnam?

Not sure it would make much difference. The RAF, after all deployed Vulcan B.2s to RAF Gan and Victor B.1As to (IIRC) Butterworth during the Confrontation.
 
The first RAF V bombers weren't sent to the area until 1963, but the Dutch and Indonesians had a standoff in 1961 that RAAF Vulcans could play a role in.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I'll be picking up a book on Vulcan units in the Cold War, so expect some action on this thread in the next 24 hours.

Apparently the Victor was very easily supersonic, it would go supersonic regularly in shallow dives and would have been properly supersonic with afterburners.

As for the Vulcan, it is very hard to supersonic at low level only a handful of aircraft can do it; F111, Tornado, Su24 and fighters which don't spend much time down there. A better approach would be that of the Buccaneer, sustaining M 0.9 at under 500ft for long distances, and the Vulcan could probably manage that with some mods.

I do know that at least some of the Vulcans in the Black Buck raids used a high-low-high flight path, which as you know means while they flew to and from the Falklands at a high altitude for fuel conservation they made the actual bomb run at low altitude. That tells me that at the very least the British had developed tactics for them that made the RAF sufficiently comfortable with low-altitude operations to run them in an actual combat zone.

One wonders if they put TFR on them...even a subsonic aircraft with TFR will still be relatively safe from SAMs and AAA provided it uses a fairly intelligently mapped out approach path.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Vulcans in Desert Storm...

...okay, so this requires 2 PODs working with each other to happen but stick with me. In Vulcan Units of the Cold War by Andrew Brookes, it is mentioned that the RAF seriously considered basing a unit of bombers in Jordan or on Masirah Island to give it better bomber coverage in the Indian Ocean and Middle East.

So let's put 2 and 2 together and suppose that the RAF (1) keeps the Vulcan operating into 1991, even on a level like it was in 1982 and (2) has base facilities for it in either Jordan or at Masirah.

How could a Vulcan bomber unit be integrated into the air war?
 
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