Alternate Vulcan Users...

MacCaulay

Banned
I figured you guys might like to see some pictures of the Royal New Zealand Air Force's Vulcan bomber force...

562_kiwi.jpg


I figured the rest of you gearwhores would get a kick out of that. Hell of a way to start the discussion, huh? :D
 
Maybe if Indonesia is more strongly aligned with the Soviets? Or Vietnam goes all red earlier.

Or if there is no falling out between the Chinese and Soviets. Stronger red presence in south east asia, including Indonesia.

Were there any plans to do a martime recon version of the vulcan?
 
Well, if Spock is born as a woman, that would have a lot of affects on TOS, let alone what follows. No reboot for sure.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Were there any plans to do a martime recon version of the vulcan?

A quick search of my Jane's Aircraft says the RAF used one, coded Vulcan B.2(MRR).

Wiki has this to say about it:

On 1 November 1973 the first of nine B.2 (MRR) aircraft was delivered to No. 27 Sqn at RAF Scampton, reformed for its main role of maritime radar reconnaissance. The main external visual difference was gloss paint and the lack of the Terrain Following Radar (TFR) "thimble" below the air-to-air refuelling probe. The gloss finish, with a light grey undersurface, was due to the secondary role of air sampling. As both roles were high altitude, the TFR system was removed.


Only five of the B.2(MRR)s were capable of air sampling, and these aircraft were distinguished by the additional hardpoints outside the Skybolt points. Some additional points carried modified Sea Vixen drop tanks with the nose section replaced by a larger-diameter nose. Another external, but much smaller, piece of equipment was carried just outboard of the port undercarriage main door.


During the late 1970s some of the non-air sampling aircraft were exchanged with other squadrons whose aircraft had a high fatigue usage.
All B2(MRR) aircraft were equipped with Olympus 201 ECUs. Three of the aircraft had the small Mk 1 style of engine air intake. The B2(MRR) was withdrawn from service on 31 March 1982, some of the aircraft going on to be converted for use as tankers.
 
I can think of Israel and Singapore as alternate Vulcan users in the event that the Middle East and/or Southeast Asia gets too hot. But it would be more useful for Israel since they have nukes.
 

Cook

Banned
Funnily enough I met one of the engineers that had worked on the design of the Vulcan, a woman named Renee. Big woman, looked like a rugby forward.

She was teaching a class on aviation mechanics, one person in the class with me was Joe Leahy’s son Patrick. New Guineans are about as subtle as a sledgehammer and Patrick was no exception; one Friday afternoon over drinks Patrick asked Renee; “So Renee, are you a block in a dress or what?”

Turns out Renee had spent most of here life as a guy named Derik until making a life changing decision and having some surgery.

Funny old world isn't it?
:p
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I can think of Israel and Singapore as alternate Vulcan users in the event that the Middle East and/or Southeast Asia gets too hot. But it would be more useful for Israel since they have nukes.

Martin Middlebrook wrote an amazing book called Fight for the Malvinas: The Argentine Forces in the Falklands War where he interviewed a few different high ranking Air Force officers about the rumor that the Argentines were approaching the British about acquiring a strategic bombing capability by purchasing Vulcans, and apparently they all said it was true.

They had plans to base them at their civilian airports where the logistics were already available and everything.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Weren’t the Poms trying to sell Harriers to the Argentines only a few years earlier?

I haven't read or heard anything about Harriers. They were either trying or succeeding in selling them about everything else, though. If the British weren't able to sell the Argentines something that would be used against them in 1982, it was only because the French or Americans had beat them to it.

A-4Qs, Neptune search planes, AMTRACs and landing ships came from us. The Mirages, Super Entendards and Exocets came from the French. Rifles, SAMs, and mortars of all types came from the British.


Then there's my personal favourite idea for a dream air force: the Canadian all-delta wing RCAF. 10 squadrons of Arrows, 2 squadrons of search Vulcans, 1 squadron of bombers.
 
Then there's my personal favourite idea for a dream air force: the Canadian all-delta wing RCAF. 10 squadrons of Arrows, 2 squadrons of search Vulcans, 1 squadron of bombers.

Toss in 3-4 squadrons of Mirage IIIs for attack duties (and to make the French happy) and we're good. Oh, what could have been...... :(

To be honest, I have long wondered why the British bothered retiring the Vulcan. It was an excellent design, and doing what the Russians did with their bombers, it could have made the Soviets unable to use their Navy, because any surface groups could get struck by the Vulcan bombers. New turbofans (Turbo-Union units from the Tornado would have been ideal for the purpose) and modifications for anti-ship missiles, and you'd have a NATO sea denial weapon with few equals. Not as fast as the Blackjack or Backfire, but still a good tool for the job......
 

MacCaulay

Banned
They had a Vulcan at the SAC museum in Nebraska, along with one of the engines. Once I learn how to use the scanner and drag pictures over once they're onto the computer I'll have to post them. Apparently they were going to take those engines and stick them in the TSR.2, as well.


So we've got possible Argentine and Canadian Vulcans, though I admit that the Argentine ones are the most likely.

I know this is probably crazy unrealistic, but for a long time the South African Air Force had a bomber arm with it's Buccaneers. Perhaps in some alternate timeline where the apartheid government (as well as the USSR) is still around they might end up getting ahold of four or five Vulcans to replace the Bucc force.

Then there's India. They seem like the kind of country that would put money down for that kind of ability, especially if they were planning ahead and knew they'd have nuclear weapons to put on it down the road: basically take the Vulcan and put it where the Indian Bears are, with a few tweaks, of course.
 
So we've got possible Argentine and Canadian Vulcans, though I admit that the Argentine ones are the most likely.

I know this is probably crazy unrealistic, but for a long time the South African Air Force had a bomber arm with it's Canberras. Perhaps in some alternate timeline where the apartheid government (as well as the USSR) is still around they might end up getting ahold of four or five Vulcans to replace the Canberra force.

Then there's India. They seem like the kind of country that would put money down for that kind of ability, especially if they were planning ahead and knew they'd have nuclear weapons to put on it down the road: basically take the Vulcan and put it where the Indian Bears are, with a few tweaks, of course.

The South Africans would probably want the Vulcans in the 1960s if ever, as the other African states started becoming independent. The "Winds of Change" speech scared the shit out of Pretoria, but even by then London and Pretoria weren't on real good terms. Best idea there is to have the SAAF order Vulcans at the same time as they bought their Blackburn Buccaneers (1963). The Vulcan would lose some of its performance flying out of a airfield like AFB Waterkloof in Pretoria, but it would still beat up anything else the SAAF had. Possible? Yes. But the SAAF might not like the price of the Vulcans, which would almost certainly be rather costly.

As for India, I'm surprised that didn't happen in OTL. Their Canberra bombed the shloopy out of Pakistan in 1965 and 1971 (though Pakistan's America-built Canberras did return the favor) and India would have lots of uses for Vulcans when dealing with Pakistan, China and its duties with the UN (which where their Canberras first saw combat).
 
Toss in 3-4 squadrons of Mirage IIIs for attack duties (and to make the French happy) and we're good. Oh, what could have been...... :(

We could have had French Arrows, actually, as the plane generated some interest in France. If Avro and Dassault had started working together, Canada might have produced the Armée de l'Air's interceptor, and Dassault the RCAF's attack planes indeed.
 
Australia was going to get a sqn of 8 or 10 in the late 50s, just before the US bought the Brits back into the nuclear bed. That act ruined so much coolness its a crime.
 

Archibald

Banned
We could have had French Arrows, actually, as the plane generated some interest in France. If Avro and Dassault had started working together, Canada might have produced the Armée de l'Air's interceptor, and Dassault the RCAF's attack planes indeed.

What ? Quoi ? I heard that the "fat Mirage IV" - the Mirage IVB of 1959 - considered Orenda Iroquois along the RB-142, Olympus, and J-75.

J-75s were prefered, a prototype started in spring 1959 then cancelled because De Gaulle wanted a 100% french bombers for the nukes.
Since the Atar Mirage IV had lower performance, reliance on foreign hardware was moved to the air tankers, and KC-135s were bought .
 
I figured you guys might like to see some pictures of the Royal New Zealand Air Force's Vulcan bomber force...

(PICTURE)

I figured the rest of you gearwhores would get a kick out of that. Hell of a way to start the discussion, huh? :D

This vulcan bomber is an RAF bomber. During 1959 it went to New Zealand for an Airshow and was damaged while attempting to land. it was subsequently repaired by RNZAF ground crew who also repainted the aircraft in NZ roundels. Damaged parts of the aircraft remain on display in New Zealand.

Russell
 
The Kiwis got hold of some 3rd generation Canberras B(I)12 night interdictors and used them in the Konfrontasi. Who'da thunk that?
 
While looking up Kiwi Vulcans, I found this picture.

Some Orenda Iroquois engines ended up at SNECMA but I don't think anything came of it.

Was this thread inspired in any way by the Kiwi Vigilante Nuclear Bomber?

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